weird situation involving last-second shot

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by representing

I had a weird situation that could have been easily avoided.

Did a JV game Saturday night. About 10 seconds left to go in the first half, A is bringing the ball up after B shot and made a basket. I am now the L while my partner is the T. I'm at the baseline of A's basket when A1 managed to lose the ball somehow (whether it was a pass-gone-bad, fumble, etc.) and B1 grabs the ball. With 5 seconds left, he runs towards the other basket to go for a right-handed layup. At this point, he is by himself. My partner (now the L) is on the left side from the basket, along the side-line at the foul-line extended. I (now the T) am running hard to get closer to see if the ball is released or not before buzzer goes of. I'm about a few feet from the half-line opposite from the basket in question, while on the right-side from the basket. The hand and ball is in clear view to me, while my partner wouldn't have been able to tell if the ball is out of the hand or not yet. At the buzzer, I saw there were a few inches between the hand and ball, so I'm getting ready to call the basket good if it goes in. The ball does go through the rim and just as I'm about to throw my hand down to say "good basket", here's my partner, who would not have had a clear view of the layup, running towards the table, hands waving off the basket, yelling "no basket! no basket!". Now, this was MY call to make, he was not in the position to make the call. We didn't have a pregame because my partner decided to show up a little late, then talk with everyone he knows on his way from the gym entrance to the official's room. So we couldn't discuss last-second shots like you would in a pre-game conference.

What do you do if you were in my situation? I was always told that in close cases like this, if one referee makes a call, whether right or wrong, without talking with the other official(s), you should not overturn that ruling, regardless of what you know is right and wrong. Following that "word of advice", I let him on his own to defend his ruling against the coach of the team he just took away two points.

So let me get the facts straight.
1. This is an uncontested try for goal by a player who is out in front of everyone else.
2. Your partner is at the FT line extended on that end of the court.
3. You have to run hard from the end line at the far side of the court to reach the division line before the horn sounds.
4. You believe that this was your call to make, not your partner's.
5. You believe that your partner was out of position.

Want to know my opinion of this situation?

[representing]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So let me get the facts straight.
1. This is an uncontested try for goal by a player who is out in front of everyone else.
2. Your partner is at the FT line extended on that end of the court.
3. You have to run hard from the end line at the far side of the court to reach the division line before the horn sounds.
4. You believe that this was your call to make, not your partner's.
5. You believe that your partner was out of position.

Want to know my opinion of this situation?

If it's in a constructive criticism manner, and not in an arrogance manner. Yes.

And I want to say, for the record before you go on to say anything, that my partner would have had no way to tell whether that ball left his hand or not. I was at a better angle to see, and I was close enough to see the ball leave the hand before the buzzer went off. From my partner's angle, he probably saw the ball not completely past the finger tips and thought his fingers were still touch the ball.

[representing]

One other thing, he was not behind the player at the FT line extended, but on the opposite side-line at the FT line extended. Not a good angle to see this shot at the last second.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by representing

One other thing, he was not behind the player at the FT line extended, but on the opposite side-line at the FT line extended. Not a good angle to see this shot at the last second.

So let's skip my earlier list for now and allow me to ask you why you feel that an official standing at the FT line extended on one side of the court would not have a good view of an unguarded player releasing a right-handed lay-up from the other side of the basket. What is obstructing his view? Why do you think that his angle is poor? Where is the C normally positioned in a 3-man game when he has the last shot? How about the T during a half court offensive set?

[representing]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So let's skip my earlier list for now and allow me to ask you why you feel that an official standing at the FT line extended on one side of the court would not have a good view of an unguarded player releasing a right-handed lay-up from the other side of the basket. What is obstructing his view? Why do you think that his angle is poor? Where is the C normally positioned in a 3-man game when he has the last shot? How about the T during a half court offensive set?

Why don't you do this... ask someone to take a basketball and put it in his/her left hand, and then place the right hand on the right side of the ball, whether touching the ball or not. Then you stand about 20 feet away at about a 10-15 degree angle. You couldn't possibly tell whether that hand is touching the ball or not. Then you got the net and the rim obstructing your view as well during this layup. Me, I had the best and clearest view of the ball and the hand as I was pretty much in line with the player at the taken of the shot, to the right of the net and rim so I had no obstruction. I was able to see the hand clearly, and the ball was released from the hand just before the buzzer. He had a bad angle to see where the ball was in relation to the hand.

End of discussion, I'm going to bed. Feel free to say more but I won't be replying until tomorrow.

[Nevadaref]

So you are saying that you believe that your partner's view of the shooter's hand was blocked by the ball? The ball was between the shooter's hand and his eyes on this play?

I need to get my rest as well, but I believe that I have made it clear that my opinion is that you don't have a clear grasp for handling the mechanics of this last-second try for goal in transition. You are convinced that this call was your decision to make and not your partners as well as that he got it wrong. I believe that you are mistaken about the former and I can't pass judgment upon the latter because I didn't see the action. If you would like to learn something from this situation, you will need to cease being so rigid in your view and open your mind to other possibilities. I'll be back posting tomorrow, if you desire to hear some of the finer points of dealing with such a play.

[representing]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So you are saying that you believe that your partner's view of the shooter's hand was blocked by the ball? The ball was between the shooter's hand and his eyes on this play?

I need to get my rest as well, but I believe that I have made it clear that my opinion is that you don't have a clear grasp for handling the mechanics of this last-second try for goal in transition. You are convinced that this call was your decision to make and not your partners as well as that he got it wrong. I believe that you are mistaken about the former and I can't pass judgment upon the latter because I didn't see the action. If you would like to learn something from this situation, you will need to cease being so rigid in your view and open your mind to other possibilities. I'll be back posting tomorrow, if you desire to hear some of the finer points of dealing with such a play.

I'm always up for learning from other officials, just as long as no one gets all cocky or arrogant about it. That's why I'm glad I found this forum yesterday, I can ask questions on here and no one will know who I am. Hell, one of you could probably be someone from the same chapter I'm from in Pennsylvania!

Anyways, yes, I'm saying his view would have been blocked by the ball, because of the angle he had, and most likely the net was in his line of view as well. I feel I was in a better position to make that call. I think he should have known he might not have been at a good angle and that I was at the better angle. I even saw the home team's coach looking like "wow, we got lucky on that one" just before I left to get off the court.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So let's skip my earlier list for now and allow me to ask you why you feel that an official standing at the FT line extended on one side of the court would not have a good view of an unguarded player releasing a right-handed lay-up from the other side of the basket. What is obstructing his view? Why do you think that his angle is poor? Where is the C normally positioned in a 3-man game when he has the last shot? How about the T during a half court offensive set?

I agree with you on these points Nevada. But I would like your opinion on how you, and others, would handle this situation. I would like to turn this small argument between you into a good learning situation (I'm selfish, I know... a good argument can be quite entertaining).

Hypothetical; let's say it's to win the game. You are the T and are 100% convinced the shot was off in time but your partner waves it off. What do you do?

[johnnyrao]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

I agree with you on these points Nevada. But I would like your opinion on how you, and others, would handle this situation. I would like to turn this small argument between you into a good learning situation (I'm selfish, I know... a good argument can be quite entertaining).

Hypothetical; let's say it's to win the game. You are the T and are 100% convinced the shot was off in time but your partner waves it off. What do you do?

I have always been taught that in this sitch you go to your partner and tell him what you saw. Do not yell across the floor or do it loud, just approach him and tell him what you saw. I was taught that you never go and say that your partner is wrong, just go in and say something like, "Just so you know, from my angle the ball was clearly out of the shooters had before the horn sounded. I am sure of this." Once you do this, you let your partner decide if he wants to change his call based on the info you provided. I have also been taught that once you do this, if your partner stays with his call, you support him on it. I'm not saying what the OP is saying here is correct as to if he had 100% knowledge that the other official was incorrect, but I have always found that it is possible my partner saw something different than I did because of angles, etc.