"Providing the Roster"

[bob jenkins]

I don't have my books handy, but a team is issued a T for something like "failing to provide it's roster and 5 starters to the official scorer at least 10 minutes before the start of the game."

What does "provide" mean?

Play: Midway through the third quarter, Visitor 00 enters (otherwise legally) the game. The table buzzes, and indicates that 00 isn't in the book. I asked the table, "What information did the visitors give you to enter in the book?" and the table hands me a printed roster, with no 00. So, I take the sheet to the visitor book (on the bench, not at the table) and ask if that's what they provided. The answer comes, "Yes, and I told the scorer to add 00 to the list." The official scorer denies getting the verbal instruction.

So, did the visitors comply with the rule, or did they earn a T?

[jdw3018]

I don't have my books to read the exact rule, but I'd assess the T in this instance. There certainly is no way for you to know if the verbal instruction was given or not, for one thing, but secondly, I would judge "provide" to mean something more than just "add 00 to the list," especially if it's said in a way that doesn't provide assurance that the player was added.

[jdmara]

I agree with JDW. I think a technical is in order. If they truly said to the scorer "add 00 as well", they should have stayed until 00 was written in the book.

-Josh

[Jeremy Hohn]

If you have the head coaches approve the book's entries before the game, there is NO QUESTION who was in the book and who wasn't.

[knockitoff]

"I told the scorer to add '00' to the book" carries as much weight as "I told my team not to foul."

[tjones1]

I would say yes they provided a roster. However, it wasn't a complete roster and if they want 00 to play it's going to cost them a T.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hohn

If you have the head coaches approve the book's entries before the game, there is NO QUESTION who was in the book and who wasn't.

Agreed, but that's not SOP here.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I don't have my books handy, but a team is issued a T for something like "failing to provide it's roster and 5 starters to the official scorer at least 10 minutes before the start of the game."

What does "provide" mean?

Play: Midway through the third quarter, Visitor 00 enters (otherwise legally) the game. The table buzzes, and indicates that 00 isn't in the book. I asked the table, "What information did the visitors give you to enter in the book?" and the table hands me a printed roster, with no 00. So, I take the sheet to the visitor book (on the bench, not at the table) and ask if that's what they provided. The answer comes, "Yes, and I told the scorer to add 00 to the list." The official scorer denies getting the verbal instruction.

So, did the visitors comply with the rule, or did they earn a T?

If he's not listed, he's not supplied as far as I'm concerned.

What didn't the R catch that one book had more players than the other?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If he's not listed, he's not supplied as far as I'm concerned.

What didn't the R catch that one book had more players than the other?

Not answering for the OP, but around here we only check the official book.

We do typically count players warming up and make sure there are more in the book than on the court.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If he's not listed, he's not supplied as far as I'm concerned.

What didn't the R catch that one book had more players than the other?

We only check the official book, and given the specifics of this game, there were never (or at least rarely) all the players out for warm ups at any given moment, so all we could do was see that there were "about" 10 players and "at least" 10 names in the book.

Given that the visitors were behind something like 49-27 when this came up, and given the visitor's scorekeeper's (who was a HS kid at a religious school -- the game was between two schools that aren't even part of the IHSA)assertion that he told ("supplied") the home scorekeeper to add the name, I decided that the best thing to do was ignore the T. That doesn't mean that's what I'd do in a different circumstance -- thus my question as to what "supply" means.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

We only check the official book, and given the specifics of this game, there were never (or at least rarely) all the players out for warm ups at any given moment, so all we could do was see that there were "about" 10 players and "at least" 10 names in the book.

Given that the visitors were behind something like 49-27 when this came up, and given the visitor's scorekeeper's (who was a HS kid at a religious school -- the game was between two schools that aren't even part of the IHSA)assertion that he told ("supplied") the home scorekeeper to add the name, I decided that the best thing to do was ignore the T. That doesn't mean that's what I'd do in a different circumstance -- thus my question as to what "supply" means.

Until they clarify this procedure, it is whatever you want that word to mean. There is no specific answer to that question in this specific situation. So if you feel the proper information was submitted, that is good enough for me. Now someone else might feel differently, but they should give an official reason why you would be wrong if you took the word of one of the parities. This is just a hole in the rule and that is why the NF changes language and clarifies what they mean with rules like this. I doubt this will change soon, but if it does that is the only time we can decide what the policy should be no matter what.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Around here we only check the official book.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

We only check the official book.

Same in Connecticut.

[SCalScoreKeeper]

This is exactly why I ask coaches to verify what is on the rosters I print from MaxPreps and make any additions/subtractions necessary before filling in my book.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SCalScoreKeeper

This is exactly why I ask coaches to verify what is on the rosters I print from MaxPreps and make any additions/subtractions necessary before filling in my book.

Why would you even use such a resource in the first place? I would think that not many people from a school would be constantly updating that information. I have even found the school websites are almost never updated. I would think that would cause all kinds of problems with information.

Peace

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I don't have my books handy, but a team is issued a T for something like "failing to provide it's roster and 5 starters to the official scorer at least 10 minutes before the start of the game."

What does "provide" mean?

Play: Midway through the third quarter, Visitor 00 enters (otherwise legally) the game. The table buzzes, and indicates that 00 isn't in the book. I asked the table, "What information did the visitors give you to enter in the book?" and the table hands me a printed roster, with no 00. So, I take the sheet to the visitor book (on the bench, not at the table) and ask if that's what they provided. The answer comes, "Yes, and I told the scorer to add 00 to the list." The official scorer denies getting the verbal instruction.

So, did the visitors comply with the rule, or did they earn a T?

Bob,
JRut is correct that this is a bit of a hole in the rules in terms of definition. In Central Ohio, we also count players and employ an "at least x number". In addition, I check that the two books match player countwise (customarily, we are asked to sign both books).

My attempt at logic here is the following:
1. The team was able to put the rest of the roster on paper with all names, numbers and starters listed.
2. A PENCIL/PEN was available at the scorer's table.
3. The visiting team had an opportunity to pick up said PENCIL/PEN to simply update their preprinted roster.

Conclusion: If team is behind by less than 20 points, I would issue a "T" (I call this the Jenkins Rule). I quite probably would have done what Bob did in this situation. But, had it been a competitive game, the team's decision to take a short cut would have been penalized. If we start accepting verbal communication in such cases, a whole can of worms with which we do not wish to deal would be opened.