Alternating-Possession Throw-in ?

[JPaco54]

Questioin states: It is an alternating-possession throw-in after a pass by A1 to A2 touches an official and then goes directly out of bounds. The answer given was True...they reference 7-2 and 4-4-4 - I stated it was False, it is not an AP, reference 4-4-4.

Am I missing something here or is the answer given as True, wrong.

[tjones1]

Was this question in Referee?

[JPaco54]

No it was on a state test last year and showed up on this years test again.

[tadams]

I would say: The official is part of the floor. Team A retains team control during a pass. This scenerio is equal to a bounce pass going directly out of bounds.

My ruling would be out of bounds on team A, team Bs ball.

I am interested in hearing why we are both obviously wrong with our logic! Seems like the only way that the answer could be true is that the act of hitting the official revokes team control.

[JPaco54]

I have tried to figure this one out and I have emailed some other refs and lets see how they explain. I agree with you, B's throw-in.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tadams

I would say: The official is part of the floor. Team A retains team control during a pass. This scenerio is equal to a bounce pass going directly out of bounds.

My ruling would be out of bounds on team A, team Bs ball.

I am interested in hearing why we are both obviously wrong with our logic! Seems like the only way that the answer could be true is that the act of hitting the official revokes team control.

You're correct, but your reasoning is slightly off; only in that "team control" is not relevant.

1. The official is considered part of the floor in this case.
2. A1 was the last to touch the ball before it went OOB.
3. B ball, plain and easy case.

I have no idea why the state answer is different, and I'd love to see either their rule backing or their retraction.

[tadams]

The only reason I mention team control is only the fact that AP only comes into play when there is no team control and team control is not established by the result of violation or foul.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by tadams

The only reason I mention team control is only the fact that AP only comes into play when there is no team control and team control is not established by the result of violation or foul.

Once a team has control, there are only 3 ways team control ends - 4-12-3 (a), (b), and (c) - and none of those three involve the ball touching an official.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tadams

The only reason I mention team control is only the fact that AP only comes into play when there is no team control and team control is not established by the result of violation or foul.

It's a fair point, but in this situation it doesn't even need to go that far. If it did, it would be A's ball due to team control. Team control isn't required for an OOB violation, which is how this play needs to be seen in order to be understood correctly.

You are right, of course, that even if seen incorrectly as some sort of IW or POI situation, it should go to A by virtue of team control rather than the arrow.

If, OTOH, A1's pass is a "throwin" pass, team control is not only irrelevant, but also non-existent. Again, B's ball due to the violation.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tadams

The only reason I mention team control is only the fact that AP only comes into play when there is no team control and team control is not established by the result of violation or foul.

So if A1 shoots an airball and it goes OOB untouched on the end line would you award the ball to Team B or go to the AP arrow?

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So if A1 shoots an airball and it goes OOB untouched on the end line would you award the ball to Team B or go to the AP arrow?

How I understand things, the AP only comes to play in jump ball sitch or start of quarter/half.

Nevada, wouldn't that be ball to team B?

Of course, if shot clock was involved & the shot clock buzzer sounded, it'd be a shot clock violation (ball not hitting the rim). Team B would be awarded the ball.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by chseagle

How I understand things, the AP only comes to play in jump ball sitch or start of quarter/half.

Then you have a great deal to learn.
For example, what is the proper call when a try for goal lodges between the ring and backboard? Also, how do the officials put the ball back in play following simultaneous basket interference violations by each team? What about a double FT violation?

Originally Posted by chseagle

Nevada, wouldn't that be ball to team B?

Notice the . I wasn't asking a real question, but trying to make a point about a situation without team control.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Then you have a great deal to learn.
For example, what is the proper call when a try for goal lodges between the ring and backboard? Also, how do the officials put the ball back in play following simultaneous basket interference violations by each team? What about a double FT violation?


Notice the . I wasn't asking a real question, but trying to make a point about a situation without team control.

Unfortunately, I haven't seen that happen yet where the ball gets lodged between the ring & backboard. Nor have I seen a double foul sitch like you're asking about. Even though I've been doing scoreboard/timer for the past 4 years.

I am asking the questions cause I am wanting to learn.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Unfortunately, I haven't seen that happen yet where the ball gets lodged between the ring & backboard. Nor have I seen a double foul sitch like you're asking about. Even though I've been doing scoreboard/timer for the past 4 years.

I am asking the questions cause I am wanting to learn.

A double foul results in using the Point of Interruption. A double free throw violation is different.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by chseagle

Unfortunately, I haven't seen that happen yet where the ball gets lodged between the ring & backboard. Nor have I seen a double foul sitch like you're asking about. Even though I've been doing scoreboard/timer for the past 4 years.

That is surprising to me because I see it several times a year, but it is certainly possible that it hasn't happened in your games.

Originally Posted by chseagle

I am asking the questions cause I am wanting to learn.

That is a positive and good thing. I will caution you that you came on very strong when first posting on this forum. Your initial posts about "knowing all of the latest rules" weren't well-received. It came across as a "know-it-all" attitude. If that wasn't your intent, then I for one am willing to move forward and try to help you in the future.

Please be aware that there are many very experienced and very knowledgeable officials on this forum, who will vastly increase your knowledge of the game if you are willing to listen to them.

Best Wishes.