Posession

[Dave Birch]

This happened in my sons game last nite and I thought the refs were wrong on this one.On a jump ball to start an OT the ball is legally tipped by A1 and B1, the ball comes to A2(doesn't catch it) who bats it 2 times to the floor, not really in control. A3 and B2 simultaniousaly take it from A2 and we have a held ball. The refs blew the whistle, and give the ball to B saying that the 2 bats by A2 constituted control. I dissagree. Does anyone have any comments?

[Bart Tyson]

Judgement call. Its not a right or wrong call. If the official thought he had control, then its a correct call. I will add that when dealing with player control, i have to be VERY certain before i say we have player control. You see this a lot when the opponent almost steals the ball. Sometimes they bat the ball twice then goes oob. If the player is off balance or something i won't call it player control. No reset of shot clock.

[Todd VandenAkker]

Agreed that it's a judgment call. Often, even when the ball deflects off a player's hand, like from a pass or rebound attempt, and then goes straight to the floor, fans and coaches think that constituted the start of a dribble (got a big "boo" from partisan fans last night for that very thing when I didn't call double-dribble). So in this posted situation, I can see where TWO bounces to the floor could be deemed as player control--and it very well might have been. If the player simply made contact twice in trying to secure the ball, but "clearly" wasn't dribbling, then one might reasonably say there was no team control established. Again, judgment call.

[jackgil]

This must have been confusing to the scorers table personnel. Did the refs get the possession arrow turned in the right direction? Did the table have it the same way refs had it? Important for refs to keep tabs on possession arrow and not just abide by the table. Sometimes they go to sleep......

[doghead]

Here's something from the NFHS Case Book that might be helpful. (From Pg. 41, 6.3.1C "Jump ball to start the game") Play: Following the jump between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the jump ball is touched by A2 and it then goes out of bounds. Ruling: Team B will have a throw-in. The alternating-possession procedure is established and the arrow is set toward's A's basket when a player of Team B is handed the ball for the throw-in. So, if I understand this correctly, even though the control was momentary on A2's part, it was enough to establish control. Does this relate to your situation? Here's another question for anyone out there...I'm a rookie (1st year) official...Is there ever errors in the Case Book? Just wondering.

[doghead]

Okay, now I'm confused! Somebody help the "Rookie Ref" out here. I just looked at the 1999-2000 NFHS Simplified & Illustrated Book at the bottom of page 47. It says to give Team B the ball for throw-in AND the initial arrow. What's correct here! THANKS!

[Todd VandenAkker]

quote:

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Originally posted by doghead on 03-14-2000 03:18 PM
Following the jump between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the jump ball is touched by A2 and it then goes out of bounds. .... The alternating-possession procedure is established and the arrow is set toward's A's basket when a player of Team B is handed the ball for the throw-in. So, if I understand this correctly, even though the control was momentary on A2's part, it was enough to establish control.

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Since A2 only "touched" the ball before it went out, that did NOT constitute control for purposes of the arrow. That's why in the ruling you quoted, B gets the ball for the throw-in (because A2 caused it to go OOB) and A gets the arrow--control first occurs when the ref hands B the ball for the throw-in. If A2 had taken a legal dribble or grabbed it momentarily, but then lost it OOB, then he would have been considered to have control. As your second post implies, team B would then get BOTH the arrow (which technically is set as soon as A2 dribbled or grabbed the ball) and the throw-in (because the ball went OOB). The only way team B gets both, though, is if A2 actually established control before the ball went out, just as if he had dribbled around for a few seconds before losing it OOB. Make sense?

[bob jenkins]

quote:

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Originally posted by doghead on 03-14-2000 03:42 PM
Okay, now I'm confused! Somebody help the "Rookie Ref" out here. I just looked at the 1999-2000 NFHS Simplified & Illustrated Book at the bottom of page 47. It says to give Team B the ball for throw-in AND the initial arrow. What's correct here! THANKS!

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If the ball just deflects off of A2's hands, then A2 never had player control, thus A never had team control. The arrow can't be set until B has the ball for the throw-in, and then it's set toward A's basket. That's the case book play you referenced in the post above the one I'm replying to.

In the comic book, A12 obtains player control of the ball -- even for just a moment. The arrow is set *right away* toward B's basket (at least it's "logically" set -- it might not be "physically" set quite yet, depending on the speed of the table). Now, A12 fumbles the ball out of bounds. This is just like any other out-of-bounds call. B gets the ball and the arrow isn't reset, since it isn't a held ball.

Hope that helps.

[doghead]

THANKS very much for responding. I understand the difference now between the two situations. This discussion board is great!