Foul out of bounds

[refnuts]

A1 passes to A2 near the sideline. B1 in an attempt to steal the pass, bumps into A2 which causes A2 to fumble the ball out of bounds.

The ball was clearly out of bounds on A2.

B1 has four fouls before this play and is B's top scorer. B down 30 in early in the 2nd half.

What do you have on this play?

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by refnuts

B1 has four fouls before this play and is B's top scorer. B down 30 in early in the 2nd half.

What do you have on this play?

Failing to see why any of this matters?

[Adam]

Here's your proverbial "when in Rome" moment. This is going to vary by who runs your organization and their philosophy. Some will tell you to call the foul, regardless. I know for a fact that some evaluators will tell you to use the old "force out" call here and give the ball back to A without calling the foul.

Pragmatically, I can see the basis either way. If you call the foul, B loses their best player; but if you don't call the foul, B's best player is going to do it again and you'll have to deal with it.

Personally, I would say call the foul. If B1 has four fouls this early in the game, he's not playing good defense anyway. It's much easier to justify the foul by rule. But there are good officials I know who would tell you to go with the "force out" call.

[refnuts]

Slight bump causes player to go out of bounds with 2 seconds left. Official calls foul. Team ties game.

Where is line drawn on the effect of individual or team foul count, score of game, and time left have influence on officials play calls?

Obvious things have to be called. Put how about the not so obvious?

[slow whistle]

Originally Posted by refnuts

Slight bump causes player to go out of bounds with 2 seconds left. Official calls foul. Team ties game.

Where is line drawn on the effect of individual or team foul count, score of game, and time left have influence on officials play calls?

Obvious things have to be called. Put how about the not so obvious?

Personally I think we have enough to focus on rather than worrying about all of the peripheral stuff. There needs to be an awareness of game situation to help you to direct your focus, but not to influence whether or not to make a specific call IMO. If you can process all of that information and use it to decide whether or not your fist goes up in that half second-second then more power to you, but I would rather take that stuff out of the equation and use my focus to decide whether or not a foul occurred.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by refnuts

Slight bump causes player to go out of bounds with 2 seconds left. Official calls foul. Team ties game.

I don't think the calling official had a choice in this play. There was contact caused by the defender and the dribbler clearly stepped on the out of bounds line. You have to call something and tough as it was, I think the right call was made.

[Adam]

In a close game in crunch time, they have to make that call (in spite of what Jay Bilas says) to preserve the game.

[Rufus]

In this case, regardless of other circumstances, you need to call the foul. A2 may or may not of fumbled the ball out of bounds but we'll never know since B1 bumped them. I would have a hard time penalizing A for "causing" the OOB in this case since B actually caused it. YMM.

As Snaq indicated, if B1 had that many fouls early in the second half then it's not on us to keep them in the game. They're supposed to do that by playing defense and not fouling. We've all seen great players on sub-par teams collect not only their share of the points but also of the fouls (since usually no one else on the team can play offense or defense). The NBA takes pains not to foul out the "stars" and than goodness none of us call for the NBA so we don't need to worry about that.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by refnuts

Slight bump causes player to go out of bounds with 2 seconds left. Official calls foul. Team ties game.

Where is line drawn on the effect of individual or team foul count, score of game, and time left have influence on officials play calls?

Obvious things have to be called. Put how about the not so obvious?

For those who advocate a more nuanced approach to this, the line is somewhere between a 2 point game with 2 seconds left and a 50 point blowout in the third quarter.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

For those who advocate a more nuanced approach to this, the line is somewhere between a 2 point game with 2 seconds left and a 50 point blowout in the third quarter.

You might also use the more "nuanced" approach if A1 might or might not have travelled, or B1 might or might not have touched the ball. In those cases, I agree that you can give the benefit of the doubt to "did not travel" and "B touched the ball."

Or, in my same examples above, change B1 from "star player with 4 fouls" to "troublemaker with 4 fouls" and give the benefit of the doubt to "committed a foul."

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

For those who advocate a more nuanced approach to this, the line is somewhere between a 2 point game with 2 seconds left and a 50 point blowout in the third quarter.

Ooh, thanks for clearing that up for me, Mr. Nuance.

Middle of the 1st quarter, same play happens. If the contact was enough to warrant a foul call then, it will be enough to warrant a foul call at the end of the game. If not, then no at the end of the game as well.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by slow whistle

Personally I think we have enough to focus on rather than worrying about all of the peripheral stuff. There needs to be an awareness of game situation to help you to direct your focus, but not to influence whether or not to make a specific call IMO. If you can process all of that information and use it to decide whether or not your fist goes up in that half second-second then more power to you, but I would rather take that stuff out of the equation and use my focus to decide whether or not a foul occurred.

That "peripheral stuff" is what separates a good referee from a great referee. If team A is getting hammered by 30 with 2 min left in the 4th and and team B is on offense and is driving to the hoop and A1 has his arms barely non vertical and it causes the player to miss the shot, are you gonna call a foul??? I would hope not, granted it is technically a foul you are just now shoving this already embarassing loss right up team A's butt and making it worse.

I think the play in the OP is a foul, but by taking into account time and score I would be ok with passing on a slight bump that caused the player to lose control of the ball as long as it is late in the 4th and there is no possible chance of the team coming back from 30 down. That is just good game management. I personally wouldn't factor the type of player that committed the act into THIS play in particular bc it is so late in the game just the time and score. I think the no call is a win-win. The coach who is up, more than likely won't say anything bc it is a blowout and the other coach gets the ball down 30!

I also believe if there is more than a slight bump and the player gets knocked down then you should probably take a foul. jmo

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

That "peripheral stuff" is what separates a good referee from a great referee. If team A is getting hammered by 30 with 2 min left in the 4th and and team B is on offense and is driving to the hoop and A1 has his arms barely non vertical and it causes the player to miss the shot, are you gonna call a foul??? I would hope not, granted it is technically a foul you are just now shoving this already embarassing loss right up team A's butt and making it worse.

I think the play in the OP is a foul, but by taking into account time and score I would be ok with passing on a slight bump that caused the player to lose control of the ball as long as it is late in the 4th and there is no possible chance of the team coming back from 30 down. That is just good game management. I personally wouldn't factor the type of player that committed the act into THIS play in particular bc it is so late in the game just the time and score. I think the no call is a win-win. The coach who is up, more than likely won't say anything bc it is a blowout and the other coach gets the ball down 30!

I also believe if there is more than a slight bump and the player gets knocked down then you should probably take a foul. jmo

You realize that your post is totally contradictory to what you say in your signature. If a player fouls another player, you call it. Please show me in the rules where it says you don't.

[zebraman]

Wouldn't it be nice to live in a perfect basketball world where a foul is always a foul? At the lower levels, it just might be so.

The reality of officiating at higher levels is that we are taught that there are plays which are 50/50's. In other words, marginal contact that may or may not be a foul depending on the game situation.

You don't have to like it, but that is how it is. Those who don't understand that don't generally last real long.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by refnuts

A1 passes to A2 near the sideline. B1 in an attempt to steal the pass, bumps into A2 which causes A2 to fumble the ball out of bounds.

The ball was clearly out of bounds on A2.

B1 has four fouls before this play and is B's top scorer. B down 30 in early in the 2nd half.

What do you have on this play?

....and let's just say for the sake of argument that you don't call the foul on B1. A few moments later, B3 goes on a 3-point shooting frenzy cutting the lead to 10 entering the 4th quarter. B1 goes on to score 20 points in the 4th quarter and Team B wins the game.....

If that happens, how would you feel? I know, it is only hypothetical, but so is the situation. As Shaqs indicated, there is a line that we MAY choose to draw. The problem is, as soon as we start drawing artificial lines, it can come back to haunt us.

A 32-2 game in which B1 has scored the only two points is a far safer "bet" than a 75-45 game at the same point in the second half. The problem is that electing not to call the foul CAN come back to bite you later in the game. For example, if the 30 point lead shrinks to 10 and THE EXACT SAME SITUATION presents itself, are you now going to call it? You sent B1 a message with your first non-call.

Lots of things to ponder during the game. A 3-point shooting team that presses can be down by a BUNDLE early if they are missing. But, make a few, get into their presses, get a few turnovers and 30 becomes 9 awfully quickly.

At the same time, 32-2, Team B incapable of scoring 30 points in the remainder of the game WITHOUT defense, your "bet" is substantially safer.

As I have stated on other boards, we will always have two types of referees -- one group that sticks tightly to the book and the other that follows the Spirit of the Rule, but not necessarily the Black and White of the rule. While they frequently despise each other's existence, their very existence keeps the other on their toes.