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Old Fri Oct 30, 2009, 07:07pm
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Words An Official Doesn't Want To Hear, "Not In the Book" ...

I've posted this already on the NFHS forum, as reply to an existing thread, but since this Forum gets a lot more action, I thought that I would post the situation on the Official Forum as well:

In the second period, A6 reports to the table, is beckoned onto the court, and legally enters the game. A6 plays a few minutes, doesn't score, doesn't foul anyone, is eventually replaced by another player, and heads to the bench. Several live balls, and dead balls, occur, and the halftime buzzer sounds. While picking up their warmup jackets, the scorekeeper informs the officials that he is 100% sure that A6 participated, which is confirmed by the visiting scorekeeper, but A6 was not in the scorebook. Since A6 didn't score, or foul, the scorekeeper didn't want to interrupt the flow of the game by informing the officials of the infraction before halftime. At this time, A6 is still not in the scorebook.

Because A6 played, but was not in the scorebook, do the officials inform the scorekeeper to add the A6 to the scorebook during halftime, and penalize with a technical foul to start the third period?

Or, do the officials wait until the next time A6 legally enters the game, if he enters the game, and then add his name to the scorebook, and penalize with a technical foul at that point.

Or, due the several live balls, and dead balls, did some type of statute of limitations pass, and the scorekeeper can simply add A6 to the scorebook during halftime, with no penalty.

I know that the scorekeeper screwed up, but the officials still have to deal with it. What is the correct procedure?
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Old Fri Oct 30, 2009, 07:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I've posted this already on the NFHS forum, as reply to an existing thread, but since this Forum gets a lot more action, I thought that I would post the situation on the Official Forum as well:

In the second period, A6 reports to the table, is beckoned onto the court, and legally enters the game. A6 plays a few minutes, doesn't score, doesn't foul anyone, is eventually replaced by another player, and heads to the bench. Several live balls, and dead balls, occur, and the halftime buzzer sounds. While picking up their warmup jackets, the scorekeeper informs the officials that he is 100% sure that A6 participated, which is confirmed by the visiting scorekeeper, but A6 was not in the scorebook. Since A6 didn't score, or foul, the scorekeeper didn't want to interrupt the flow of the game by informing the officials of the infraction before halftime. At this time, A6 is still not in the scorebook.

Because A6 played, but was not in the scorebook, do the officials inform the scorekeeper to add the A6 to the scorebook during halftime, and penalize with a technical foul to start the third period?

Or, do the officials wait until the next time A6 legally enters the game, if he enters the game, and then add his name to the scorebook, and penalize with a technical foul at that point.

Or, due the several live balls, and dead balls, did some type of statute of limitations pass, and the scorekeeper can simply add A6 to the scorebook during halftime, with no penalty.

I know that the scorekeeper screwed up, but the officials still have to deal with it. What is the correct procedure?
Do you get new case books in CT? Check out the new cases in rule 3. (Hint: It's the same thing as the answers you've received when you've asked this question before.)
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Old Fri Oct 30, 2009, 07:48pm
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*3.2.2 situation c ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Do you get new case books in CT? Check out the new cases in Rule 3. (Hint: It's the same thing as the answers you've received when you've asked this question before.)
Thanks for pointing this out. I just got my books a few days ago, and since October is our busiest month of the year at the laboratory, I've been too busy, lots of overtime, to even open the books. Nice situation added to the casebook. This will be helpful. Hopefully, it will never happen, but if, and when it does, we will have a specific citation to point to.

I have to remember that the fact that if a player who is not in the book plays is not a technical foul. The technical foul is for a player's name being added to the book.

When did I ask this specific question before? Not a general question about names not in the book, but one where the player plays, live balls and dead balls happen, the player comes out of the game, the name is never added to the book, and the officials are informed after all this occurs?

*3.2.2 SITUATION C: Team A substitute No. 25 reports to the table for the first time with approximately one minute remaining in the second quarter and is beckoned onto the court. In (a), the ball is put in play by a throw-in from A1 to A2. The horn sounds and the scorer informs the officials that No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook. In (b), No. 25 plays the remainder of the second quarter. During halftime intermission, the official scorer realizes No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook and informs the officials when they return to the court before the start of the third quarter. RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A. In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. If No. 25 attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A. (3-2-2b; 10-1-2b)
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Oct 31, 2009 at 02:07am.
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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 12:38am
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cool a hockey question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by billymac View Post

in the second period...
:d
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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 01:07am
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Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Thanks for pointing this out. I just got my books a few days ago, and since October is our busiest month of the year at the laboratory, I've been too busy, lots of overtime, to even open the books. Nice situation added to the casebook. This will be helpful. Hopefully, it will never happen, but if, and when it does, we will have a specific citation to point to.

I have to remember that the fact that if a player who is not in the book plays is not a technical foul. The technical foul is for a player's name being added to the book.

When did I ask this specific question before? Not a general question about names not in the book, but one where the player plays, live balls and dead balls happen, the player comes out of the game, the name is never added to the book, and the officials are informed after all this occurs?

*3.2.2 SITUATION C: Team A substitute No. 25 reports to the table for the first time with approximately one minute remaining in the second quarter and is beckoned onto the court. In (a), the ball is put in play by a throw-in from A1 to A2. The horn sounds and the scorer informs the officials that No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook. In (b), No. 25 plays the remainder of the second quarter. During halftime intermission, the official scorer realizes No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook and informs the officials when they return to the court before the start of the third quarter. RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A. In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. If No. 25 attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A. (3-2-2b; 10-1-2b)
I don't agree with the ruling in part (b). The scorebook must still be changed to reflect that #25 participated in the 2nd quarter. It doesn't matter that he is no longer in the game. So now that the scorer must write his name and number into the book and check the box to indicate that he played in the 2nd quarter, this is the proper time to assess a technical foul under 3-2-2b and 10-1-2b. Nowhere in the rules does it state that a team member must be "currently in the game" in order to be penalized. Whoever wrote that case play ruling is absolutely wrong.

The NFHS gets a HUGE thumbs down on the new case book rulings and interps this season. The person writing them clearly doesn't understand the NFHS rules.
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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 03:57pm
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BillyMac,
The pre-game words this official never wants to hear from a coach are, "Hey, I'm a referee, too!"
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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 04:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by refnrev View Post
BillyMac,
The pre-game words this official never wants to hear from a coach are, "Hey, I'm a referee, too!"
My favorite is, "I never even talk to the officials during the game." In my experience that usually means, "I only holler, yell, or scream at the officials during the game."
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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 04:40pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I don't agree with the ruling in part (b). The scorebook must still be changed to reflect that #25 participated in the 2nd quarter. It doesn't matter that he is no longer in the game. So now that the scorer must write his name and number into the book and check the box to indicate that he played in the 2nd quarter, this is the proper time to assess a technical foul under 3-2-2b and 10-1-2b. Nowhere in the rules does it state that a team member must be "currently in the game" in order to be penalized. Whoever wrote that case play ruling is absolutely wrong.
Why is this different than other infractions which have "too late to penalize" provisions? #25 participated and was not in the book. Worse things are overlooked every day, are they not?
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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 05:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I don't agree with the ruling in part (b). The scorebook must still be changed to reflect that #25 participated in the 2nd quarter. It doesn't matter that he is no longer in the game. So now that the scorer must write his name and number into the book and check the box to indicate that he played in the 2nd quarter, this is the proper time to assess a technical foul under 3-2-2b and 10-1-2b. Nowhere in the rules does it state that a team member must be "currently in the game" in order to be penalized. Whoever wrote that case play ruling is absolutely wrong.
...
I'm assuming you have a citation for this?
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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 11:26pm
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Thanks for pointing this out. I just got my books a few days ago, and since October is our busiest month of the year at the laboratory, I've been too busy...
Yep, you mice have it tough.
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Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 11:34pm
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Originally Posted by BktBallRef View Post
Yep, you mice have it tough.
It COULD be a laboratory like this......

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Old Tue Nov 03, 2009, 01:09am
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
I'm assuming you have a citation for this?
That would be a correct assumption.

RULE 2
SECTION 11 SCORER’S DUTIES
The scorer shall:
ART. 1 . . . Keep a record of the names and numbers of players who are to start the game and of all substitutes who enter the game.
NOTE: It is recommended the team member’s numbers be entered into the scorebook in numerical order.
ART. 2 . . . Notify the nearer official when there is an infraction of the rules
pertaining to submission of the roster, substitutions or numbers of players.


PS We've discussed this issue before.
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Old Tue Nov 03, 2009, 02:00am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
RULE 2
SECTION 11 SCORER’S DUTIES
The scorer shall:
ART. 1 . . . Keep a record of the names and numbers of players who are to start the game and of all substitutes who enter the game.

Granted, this is one of the scorer's duties. But I think it is dangerous to start penalizing things at some later point in the game with no specific time limit based solely on memory. Where do we draw the line?
Apparently the committee feels this way too.
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Old Tue Nov 03, 2009, 07:35am
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It could be a laboratory like this.
That's me on the far right. I have an important job at the laboratory, procuring organs for transplants. My chiropractor screwed up during my last adjustment, thus the hunchback. A priest at Notre Dame Cathedral says he can bless me, curing my back problem. They also have an opening for a bellringer there. It might be nice living in Paris. I hear it's tough finding an apartment in the city, but I'm sure I'll find someplace to stay.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Nov 03, 2009 at 07:38am.
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Old Tue Nov 03, 2009, 07:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
“Wait Master, it might be dangerous. You go first.”
You're mixing your stories, sir. "BillyMac, help me with the bags." "Soitenly. You take the blonde, I'll take the one in the turban."
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