The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball
Register FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 30, 2009, 07:07pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 23,157
Words An Official Doesn't Want To Hear, "Not In the Book" ...

I've posted this already on the NFHS forum, as reply to an existing thread, but since this Forum gets a lot more action, I thought that I would post the situation on the Official Forum as well:

In the second period, A6 reports to the table, is beckoned onto the court, and legally enters the game. A6 plays a few minutes, doesn't score, doesn't foul anyone, is eventually replaced by another player, and heads to the bench. Several live balls, and dead balls, occur, and the halftime buzzer sounds. While picking up their warmup jackets, the scorekeeper informs the officials that he is 100% sure that A6 participated, which is confirmed by the visiting scorekeeper, but A6 was not in the scorebook. Since A6 didn't score, or foul, the scorekeeper didn't want to interrupt the flow of the game by informing the officials of the infraction before halftime. At this time, A6 is still not in the scorebook.

Because A6 played, but was not in the scorebook, do the officials inform the scorekeeper to add the A6 to the scorebook during halftime, and penalize with a technical foul to start the third period?

Or, do the officials wait until the next time A6 legally enters the game, if he enters the game, and then add his name to the scorebook, and penalize with a technical foul at that point.

Or, due the several live balls, and dead balls, did some type of statute of limitations pass, and the scorekeeper can simply add A6 to the scorebook during halftime, with no penalty.

I know that the scorekeeper screwed up, but the officials still have to deal with it. What is the correct procedure?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 30, 2009, 07:31pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 18,121
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I've posted this already on the NFHS forum, as reply to an existing thread, but since this Forum gets a lot more action, I thought that I would post the situation on the Official Forum as well:

In the second period, A6 reports to the table, is beckoned onto the court, and legally enters the game. A6 plays a few minutes, doesn't score, doesn't foul anyone, is eventually replaced by another player, and heads to the bench. Several live balls, and dead balls, occur, and the halftime buzzer sounds. While picking up their warmup jackets, the scorekeeper informs the officials that he is 100% sure that A6 participated, which is confirmed by the visiting scorekeeper, but A6 was not in the scorebook. Since A6 didn't score, or foul, the scorekeeper didn't want to interrupt the flow of the game by informing the officials of the infraction before halftime. At this time, A6 is still not in the scorebook.

Because A6 played, but was not in the scorebook, do the officials inform the scorekeeper to add the A6 to the scorebook during halftime, and penalize with a technical foul to start the third period?

Or, do the officials wait until the next time A6 legally enters the game, if he enters the game, and then add his name to the scorebook, and penalize with a technical foul at that point.

Or, due the several live balls, and dead balls, did some type of statute of limitations pass, and the scorekeeper can simply add A6 to the scorebook during halftime, with no penalty.

I know that the scorekeeper screwed up, but the officials still have to deal with it. What is the correct procedure?
Do you get new case books in CT? Check out the new cases in rule 3. (Hint: It's the same thing as the answers you've received when you've asked this question before.)
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Fri Oct 30, 2009, 07:48pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 23,157
*3.2.2 situation c ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Do you get new case books in CT? Check out the new cases in Rule 3. (Hint: It's the same thing as the answers you've received when you've asked this question before.)
Thanks for pointing this out. I just got my books a few days ago, and since October is our busiest month of the year at the laboratory, I've been too busy, lots of overtime, to even open the books. Nice situation added to the casebook. This will be helpful. Hopefully, it will never happen, but if, and when it does, we will have a specific citation to point to.

I have to remember that the fact that if a player who is not in the book plays is not a technical foul. The technical foul is for a player's name being added to the book.

When did I ask this specific question before? Not a general question about names not in the book, but one where the player plays, live balls and dead balls happen, the player comes out of the game, the name is never added to the book, and the officials are informed after all this occurs?

*3.2.2 SITUATION C: Team A substitute No. 25 reports to the table for the first time with approximately one minute remaining in the second quarter and is beckoned onto the court. In (a), the ball is put in play by a throw-in from A1 to A2. The horn sounds and the scorer informs the officials that No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook. In (b), No. 25 plays the remainder of the second quarter. During halftime intermission, the official scorer realizes No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook and informs the officials when they return to the court before the start of the third quarter. RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A. In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. If No. 25 attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A. (3-2-2b; 10-1-2b)
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Oct 31, 2009 at 02:07am.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 12:38am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 129
cool a hockey question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by billymac View Post

in the second period...
:d
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 01:07am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 15,004
Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Thanks for pointing this out. I just got my books a few days ago, and since October is our busiest month of the year at the laboratory, I've been too busy, lots of overtime, to even open the books. Nice situation added to the casebook. This will be helpful. Hopefully, it will never happen, but if, and when it does, we will have a specific citation to point to.

I have to remember that the fact that if a player who is not in the book plays is not a technical foul. The technical foul is for a player's name being added to the book.

When did I ask this specific question before? Not a general question about names not in the book, but one where the player plays, live balls and dead balls happen, the player comes out of the game, the name is never added to the book, and the officials are informed after all this occurs?

*3.2.2 SITUATION C: Team A substitute No. 25 reports to the table for the first time with approximately one minute remaining in the second quarter and is beckoned onto the court. In (a), the ball is put in play by a throw-in from A1 to A2. The horn sounds and the scorer informs the officials that No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook. In (b), No. 25 plays the remainder of the second quarter. During halftime intermission, the official scorer realizes No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook and informs the officials when they return to the court before the start of the third quarter. RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A. In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. If No. 25 attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A. (3-2-2b; 10-1-2b)
I don't agree with the ruling in part (b). The scorebook must still be changed to reflect that #25 participated in the 2nd quarter. It doesn't matter that he is no longer in the game. So now that the scorer must write his name and number into the book and check the box to indicate that he played in the 2nd quarter, this is the proper time to assess a technical foul under 3-2-2b and 10-1-2b. Nowhere in the rules does it state that a team member must be "currently in the game" in order to be penalized. Whoever wrote that case play ruling is absolutely wrong.

The NFHS gets a HUGE thumbs down on the new case book rulings and interps this season. The person writing them clearly doesn't understand the NFHS rules.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 03:57pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 1,955
BillyMac,
The pre-game words this official never wants to hear from a coach are, "Hey, I'm a referee, too!"
__________________
That's my whistle -- and I'm sticking to it!
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 04:03pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: In a little pink house
Posts: 5,289
Quote:
Originally Posted by refnrev View Post
BillyMac,
The pre-game words this official never wants to hear from a coach are, "Hey, I'm a referee, too!"
My favorite is, "I never even talk to the officials during the game." In my experience that usually means, "I only holler, yell, or scream at the officials during the game."
__________________
"It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best." - W. Edwards Deming
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 04:40pm
We don't rent pigs
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I don't agree with the ruling in part (b). The scorebook must still be changed to reflect that #25 participated in the 2nd quarter. It doesn't matter that he is no longer in the game. So now that the scorer must write his name and number into the book and check the box to indicate that he played in the 2nd quarter, this is the proper time to assess a technical foul under 3-2-2b and 10-1-2b. Nowhere in the rules does it state that a team member must be "currently in the game" in order to be penalized. Whoever wrote that case play ruling is absolutely wrong.
Why is this different than other infractions which have "too late to penalize" provisions? #25 participated and was not in the book. Worse things are overlooked every day, are they not?
__________________
I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum.
It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow.


Lonesome Dove
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 05:06pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,879
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I don't agree with the ruling in part (b). The scorebook must still be changed to reflect that #25 participated in the 2nd quarter. It doesn't matter that he is no longer in the game. So now that the scorer must write his name and number into the book and check the box to indicate that he played in the 2nd quarter, this is the proper time to assess a technical foul under 3-2-2b and 10-1-2b. Nowhere in the rules does it state that a team member must be "currently in the game" in order to be penalized. Whoever wrote that case play ruling is absolutely wrong.
...
I'm assuming you have a citation for this?
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 11:26pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Thanks for pointing this out. I just got my books a few days ago, and since October is our busiest month of the year at the laboratory, I've been too busy...
Yep, you mice have it tough.
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott

"You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 02, 2009, 11:34pm
Aleve Titles to Others
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: East Westchester of the Southern Conference
Posts: 5,381
Send a message via AIM to 26 Year Gap
Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef View Post
Yep, you mice have it tough.
It COULD be a laboratory like this......

__________________
Never hit a piñata if you see hornets flying out of it.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 03, 2009, 01:09am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 15,004
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
I'm assuming you have a citation for this?
That would be a correct assumption.

RULE 2
SECTION 11 SCORER’S DUTIES
The scorer shall:
ART. 1 . . . Keep a record of the names and numbers of players who are to start the game and of all substitutes who enter the game.
NOTE: It is recommended the team member’s numbers be entered into the scorebook in numerical order.
ART. 2 . . . Notify the nearer official when there is an infraction of the rules
pertaining to submission of the roster, substitutions or numbers of players.


PS We've discussed this issue before.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 03, 2009, 02:00am
We don't rent pigs
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 7,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
RULE 2
SECTION 11 SCORER’S DUTIES
The scorer shall:
ART. 1 . . . Keep a record of the names and numbers of players who are to start the game and of all substitutes who enter the game.

Granted, this is one of the scorer's duties. But I think it is dangerous to start penalizing things at some later point in the game with no specific time limit based solely on memory. Where do we draw the line?
Apparently the committee feels this way too.
__________________
I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum.
It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow.


Lonesome Dove
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 03, 2009, 07:35am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 23,157
“Wait Master, it might be dangerous. You go first.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap View Post
It could be a laboratory like this.
That's me on the far right. I have an important job at the laboratory, procuring organs for transplants. My chiropractor screwed up during my last adjustment, thus the hunchback. A priest at Notre Dame Cathedral says he can bless me, curing my back problem. They also have an opening for a bellringer there. It might be nice living in Paris. I hear it's tough finding an apartment in the city, but I'm sure I'll find someplace to stay.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Nov 03, 2009 at 07:38am.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 03, 2009, 07:42am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 7,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
“Wait Master, it might be dangerous. You go first.”
You're mixing your stories, sir. "BillyMac, help me with the bags." "Soitenly. You take the blonde, I'll take the one in the turban."
__________________
Cheers,
mb
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New Officiating Book - "Ready For Play" tskaggs6s19 Football 0 Thu Jan 29, 2009 02:15pm
ABC's "Nightline" examines "worst calls ever" tonight pizanno Basketball 27 Fri Jul 04, 2008 06:08am
"Official" unofficial LL World Series Thread SanDiegoSteve Baseball 201 Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:17am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:27am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1