How should I handle??

[brettm]

I officiate during the season and have spent the past few years coaching AAU summer ball (Keep your comments about AAU coaches to yourself!).

As an official, I can't help but be amazed at the number of guys wearing the stripes (note...I refuse to call them officials!) that do not comprehend the rules, understand mechanics, or bother with keeping in their areas.

A couple of things I have had happen...

1. After assessing a technical to the opposing bench, an official proceeded to give the other team the ball after the free throws. I calmly called him over and informed him that we should get the ball after the technical. He asked me where in the world did I get that from. I told him the NFHS rulebook. He told me that he follows the NCAA rules and had never heard of the NFHS. Hmm?

2. With my team down by 4 and about 3:00 to go in a running clock game, an opposing player fouled out of the game. He loudly tells the other coach that he has 1 minute to replace the player (the clock is still running). I inform him that he only has 30 seconds. The official tells me I should spend more time coaching and less time reffing and we wouldn't be losing. I immediately call a TO to stop the clock. He tells me I can't call it until the player has been replaced...all the while the clock is ticking.

3. After the 3rd time the T calls a shooting foul in the paint, I say something to him about calling his area. I was told that "there ain't no action out there". Really?

4. My favorite...it has become commonplace that players are allowed to catch the ball with both feet planted and take a step, pick up their back foot and then shoot. I know of 3 officials, when questioned, refer to it as "continuation"? I have tried to find this explained in the NFHS books, but haven't had any luck.

Any suggestions about what can be done here? How do you tell an official that he really should read the rulebooks once in a while? When it comes to summer ball, I want my kids to learn how to play by the rules. It is really difficult to teach them when the people in charge of enforcing the rules don't know them.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by brettm
I officiate during the season and have spent the past few years coaching AAU summer ball (Keep your comments about AAU coaches to yourself!).

As an official, I can't help but be amazed at the number of guys wearing the stripes (note...I refuse to call them officials!) that do not comprehend the rules, understand mechanics, or bother with keeping in their areas.

A couple of things I have had happen...

1. After assessing a technical to the opposing bench, an official proceeded to give the other team the ball after the free throws. I calmly called him over and informed him that we should get the ball after the technical. He asked me where in the world did I get that from. I told him the NFHS rulebook. He told me that he follows the NCAA rules and had never heard of the NFHS. Hmm?

The official was correct. Most AAU leagues play by NCAA rules. If you were indeed playing by NCAA rules, and your opponent had the ball when the T was called, the official was right in giving the ball back to your opponent..

2. With my team down by 4 and about 3:00 to go in a running clock game, an opposing player fouled out of the game. He loudly tells the other coach that he has 1 minute to replace the player (the clock is still running). I inform him that he only has 30 seconds. The official tells me I should spend more time coaching and less time reffing and we wouldn't be losing. I immediately call a TO to stop the clock. He tells me I can't call it until the player has been replaced...all the while the clock is ticking.

You are correct that 30 seconds is allowable to replace a DQ'd player. However, the official is correct that a timeout cannot be granted until the player is replaced. Running clock rules are a local issue, so I can't address that.

3. After the 3rd time the T calls a shooting foul in the paint, I say something to him about calling his area. I was told that "there ain't no action out there". Really?

There's nothing forbidding a Trail official from calling a foul that occurs in the paint. Each official has a primary area of responisibility. But the Officials Manual also requires us to call a foul when we see a foul. Your remark was out of line.

4. My favorite...it has become commonplace that players are allowed to catch the ball with both feet planted and take a step, pick up their back foot and then shoot. I know of 3 officials, when questioned, refer to it as "continuation"? I have tried to find this explained in the NFHS books, but haven't had any luck.

There's absolutely, postively nothing illegal about this play. It is perfectly legal for a player to lift his/her pivot foot prior to releasing the ball on a pass or dribble. NF 4.43.3 SITUATION C

Any suggestions about what can be done here?

Yes, read and study the rule and case books so that you'll better understand the rules.

How do you tell an official that he really should read the rulebooks once in a while?

The same way that I just did it above.

When it comes to summer ball, I want my kids to learn how to play by the rules. It is really difficult to teach them when the people in charge of enforcing the rules don't know them.

It also very difficult when the coaches don't know the rules.

After reading your post, I would have to agree with one of the comments made by one of your game officials. That is you need to be more concernd about coaching and less concerned about officiating.

[mick]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Yes, read and study the rule and case books so that you'll better understand the rules.

YU.P., yU.P.
mick

[brettm]

quote:

The official was correct. Most AAU leagues play by NCAA rules. If you were indeed playing by NCAA rules, and your opponent had the ball when the T was called, the official was right in giving the ball back to your opponent..


Direct from AAU Competition Handbook:

B. PLAYING RULES - To be administered at all National Championship qualifying competitions.
1. 9:U/3rd grade- Junior Boys' Division
In the 9:U/3rd grade through the Junior Boys' Division, the playing rules shall be the National Federation
of State High School Association rules for the current year except where modified by this manual.
2. Senior Boys' Division
At the AAU Senior Boys' National Basketball Championship the NCAA Men's Basketball rules (35 second
shot clock) will be used, except where modified by this manual. In other AAU sanctioned events for the
Senior Boys' Division, the Association Sport Committee may elect to use National Federation of State
High School Association rules or NCAA rules with or without a shot clock.

Sorry for not being clear. This was a 12U/6th Grade league. The league's rules are stated as following NFHS with modifications for timeouts, running clock, and overtimes.


quote:

You are correct that 30 seconds is allowable to replace a DQ'd player. However, the official is correct that a timeout cannot be granted until the player is replaced. Running clock rules are a local issue, so I can't address that.

I realize that the timeout could not be granted. The point I was trying to make is he didn't know the amount of time for replacing a player and by this action was giving an unfair advantage during an administrative procedure. Would it have made a difference if the foul was called with :59 remaining and the opposing coach could run out the clock?


quote:

There's nothing forbidding a Trail official from calling a foul that occurs in the paint. Each official has a primary area of responisibility. But the Officials Manual also requires us to call a foul when we see a foul. Your remark was out of line.

Correct, there is nothing forbidding it. However, the point was that the official was "ball hawking" and if he is continually watching the ball, he is disregarding his other responsibilities. You are right that I shouldn't have said anything at that time to him. I should have addressed it a little bit more discreetly during a stoppage of play.


quote:

There's absolutely, postively nothing illegal about this play. It is perfectly legal for a player to lift his/her pivot foot prior to releasing the ball on a pass or dribble. NF 4.43.3 SITUATION C

Either I didn't clearly define the situation or I am off base on NF 4.43.3 Sit C. Let me try again...the player has the ball and has not established a pivot. He takes a step with 1 foot (thereby establishing his pivot) and then lifts the other (pivot) off of the floor. (Here is the difference) He then puts his other foot on the floor to shoot. My understanding is that when his original pivot foot touches the floor for the 2nd time, it is a travelling violation. If he had not put his original pivot foot on the floor (same as a layup), it would not be travelling.


I read and study the rule and case books often. Anytime we have a situation like the examples I tried to provide, I go back to try to make certain I understand them correctly. Which was exactly my point of this thread. Being an offical has given me a greater appreciation for what the official's have to deal with during a game. Being a coach, I have a better appreciation for how an official can impact a game.

[Self]

brettm, What you are describing is a jump stop where the player once landed can lift either foot but neither can return to the floor.

If a player can choose his pivot as with a post player catching the ball in the paint. He may pivot on one foot lifting the other and returning it to the floor. He just can't lift and return his pivot foot.

[JRutledge]

brettm,

All I have to say is that is is AAU, whatelse do you expect?

AAU is a very mixed bag. The officials that do the games range from Pro Officials to very new officials. You get all kinds of experience levels and competence levels. It is nothing new. The guy that actually assigned the games might not be an official, and if he or she is, they might put people who are availible. Frankly, there is not much you can do about it really. You might try, but I can assure you that the assignors or tournament or league management can only hire officials that are willing to attend. I know several officials that do not do alot of these game, mainly because they are umpires or they want to do other things. You cannot always get the best. And officials like myself that do other sports and have other interests with my experience, just pass on AAU games all together.

You could pay the officials more for doing games. You could stress to coaches and fans to treat them with some respect. If you did that alone you might get more quality guys. But to be honest, AAU is held during the spring an summer. Most people would rather be outside with their families. It is just the way it is.

Peace


[Edited by JRutledge on Jul 25th, 2002 at 07:25 PM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Self
brettm, What you are describing is a jump stop where the player once landed can lift either foot but neither can return to the floor.

If a player can choose his pivot as with a post player catching the ball in the paint. He may pivot on one foot lifting the other and returning it to the floor. He just can't lift and return his pivot foot.

What he described in the second post is not a jump stop. He stated that:

"the player has the ball and has not established a pivot."
I read that as the player is standing with both feet on the floor and hasn't established a pivot.

"He takes a step with 1 foot (thereby establishing his pivot)..."
You can't take a step if you're airborne. Thus, the statement above would have to be true. The step establishes the pivot.

"..and then lifts the other (pivot) off of the floor. (Here is the difference) He then puts his other foot on the floor to shoot."
That is traveling. However, this is not what he described in the original post.

brettm, as an official, I would expect more from you as a coach. You should understand that there are varying levels of skill and talent among officials. As an official who's also a coach, you should realize that if you stand on the sideline and berate the officials, you're not going to help your cause. Also, having been in their shoes, you should respect the job they have to perform, even when they don't perform up to your standards. People who recognize you as an official will feed off your actions as a coach. you wouldn't appreciate if you were wearing the stripes and I'm sure they don't either. BTW, I'd take most AAU officials over most AAU coaches that I've seen. Good luck to you.

[Self]

You are correct, I miss read. That would be traveling.. I was thinking after reading his first post he left the jumping portion out and was just discussing what happpens at that point. Thanks for clearing up...

[brettm]

BktBallRef -

I do not and will not berate an official. I do not allow my players to question any calls from an official or make gestures to show their displeasure...anything other than respect "earns" them a place on the bench immediately. I have even went into the stands to escort out a parent of one of my player's that had gone "over the line."

I can and do appreciate the varying skill levels of the officials (and scorekeepers, timekeepers, coaches, game management, etc.) and try to keep things in perspective.

My approach to an official during a game is the same as I hope coaches will approach me when I wear the stripes. No shouting, hot dogging, or stomping my feet...I will make a comment - and it is just that - a comment, when I think it is necessary. Where did you get the impression that I "stand on the sideline and berate the officials"?

Your assumptions and comments are way out of line. The manner that you responded to my post - immediately taking the defensive and then attacking me as a person, is the same type of response that causes an official to start handing out technicals and losing control of the game. But then again, since I am a lowly AAU coach as well as an official, I probably would deserve the "T". (NOTE - I have NEVER, EVER, had a technical called on me or my team with the exception of a scorebook error).

I apologize for not describing the traveling situation as well as I should have. My intent was to simply point out a few instances I felt that we (officials and coaches) can all learn from. Isn't that the purpose of this board? Might I suggest that you try your hand at coaching a 6th grade AAU team during a summer. Work with them, teach them the fundamentals and a respect for the game...and then have the game officiated by individuals that, and this is my opinion, wouldn't spend the time to learn the rules and/or how they should be applied.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by brettm
BktBallRef-
I do not and will not berate an official.

That is not the impression you gave in your initial post. Maybe that's not what you intended but that is the perception. Read it again.

I officiate during the season and have spent the past few years coaching AAU summer ball (Keep your comments about AAU coaches to yourself!).

As an official, I can't help but be amazed at the number of guys wearing the stripes (note...I refuse to call them officials!) that do not comprehend the rules, understand mechanics, or bother with keeping in their areas.

Keep your comments to yourself? Sorry but if you're gonna post about officials, then why can't I post about coaches? Refuse to call them officials? Why? Were you never at a level where you were still learning the game?

I can and do appreciate the varying skill levels of the officials (and scorekeepers, timekeepers, coaches, game management, etc.) and try to keep things in perspective.

Again, that was not the perception that you provided.

My approach to an official during a game is the same as I hope coaches will approach me when I wear the stripes. No shouting, hot dogging, or stomping my feet...I will make a comment - and it is just that - a comment, when I think it is necessary. Where did you get the impression that I "stand on the sideline and berate the officials"?

The general tone of your post gave me that impression.

Your assumptions and comments are way out of line. The manner that you responded to my post - immediately taking the defensive and then attacking me as a person,...

Defensive? What do I have to be defensive about? I've never worked one of your games. Attack you? I've re-read my postings and don't see where I've attacked you. If you think that was an attack, you either pretty thin skinned or you haven't been here very long.

...is the same type of response that causes an official to start handing out technicals and losing control of the game.

Huh? I fail to see what a reply to a post on a discussion board has to do with an official losing control of a game. Bit of a stretch if you ask me.

I apologize for not describing the traveling situation as well as I should have.

No need to apologize.

My intent was to simply point out a few instances I felt that we (officials and coaches) can all learn from. Isn't that the purpose of this board?

Yes, it is. But if you don't want an opinion, don't ask for it. I've simply offered an opinion on what you posted. You asked for suggestions, I gave you some. Sorry if you don't agree with them but that's the chance you take when you ask.

Might I suggest that you try your hand at coaching a 6th grade AAU team during a summer. Work with them, teach them the fundamentals and a respect for the game...and then have the game officiated by individuals that, and this is my opinion, wouldn't spend the time to learn the rules and/or how they should be applied.

Sorry but I no longer have any desire to coach. I did my share when my kids were smaller.

As I said before, good luck to you.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by brettm
quote:


Sorry for not being clear. This was a 12U/6th Grade league.

I can't help but think that you already have your hands full
with a bunch of 12 year olds, so just leave the officials
alone. Period. You should know better. BTW, any coach
who says "call in your area" to me is begging for a T.
Period. It's sad you didn't get one.

[theboys]

I think what referees and coaches see is what we all see in our "everyday" world. There are a few shining lights, a few idiots, and the rest of us fall somewhere in between. I suspect most of the referees who post here are as conscientious and dedicated as the coaches who post on worldofsports.com. But, like in the rest of life, there's a sprectrum. Its kinda like the question, "What do you call the guy who graduated last in his class at med school?" - Doc.

[SDUMP]

Brett,
I was going to be the first person to reply to your situation when it first came on the board and my first comment was going to be, "Boy, are you going to open a can of worms."
I was going to tell you I know how you feel - After umpiring and officiating for 5-6 years, I got talked into coaching an "elite" 13-14 year old baseball team. At a tournament in another town, I had a play where my first baseman fielded a low throw cleanly (with his foot on the bag), but sat down in front of the basepath, thus getting run over by the batter-runner and dropping the ball.
A young umpire (17 or 18) came up with a safe call since the ball was on the ground. Unfortunately, my reaction was the same as my parents - loud disbelief, then "oh, well," it's over. Move on. After the game, I had a discussion with the young man about that play and we agreed that a runner that was already out couldn't make himself safe again by running into the first baseman and knocking the ball out. I told the young man that I screwed up the worst, because I became a "coach/spectator" as far as yelling, instead of approaching him calmly and asking him to give me his interpretation of the play.
Looking back at that and looking at your situation, you are in a no win situation because as a coach, any constructive criticism you try to give a fellow referee will not be accepted as that - constructive. The one thing I do like to hear is that your players are not the ones to talk to the officials, that is the coach's job.
I still umpire in the summers, so I don't referee at team camps or the AAU tournaments; partly because of the umpiring and partly because officiating basketball year round would cause me to burn out and that would be a disservice to the kids playing, my family and myself.
Who knows, down the road, after you've been officiating for 10-15 years, maybe you can get something done in your association as far as weeding out those officials that are just there for the money or the power trip. Although, like quite a few of the replies said, sometimes you have to take whoever is on the court and just bite your tongue.
Good luck, though.
Troy

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by SDUMP
At a tournament in another town, I had a play where my first baseman fielded a low throw cleanly (with his foot on the bag), but sat down in front of the basepath, thus getting run over by the batter-runner and dropping the ball.
A young umpire (17 or 18) came up with a safe call since the ball was on the ground. Unfortunately, my reaction was the same as my parents - loud disbelief, then "oh, well," it's over. Move on. After the game, I had a discussion with the young man about that play and we agreed that a runner that was already out couldn't make himself safe again by running into the first baseman and knocking the ball out. I told the young man that I screwed up the worst, because I became a "coach/spectator" as far as yelling, instead of approaching him calmly and asking him to give me his interpretation of the play.

Okay, for some of you who call baseball, is this batter-runner out or safe?

[mick]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Okay, for some of you who call baseball, is this batter-runner out or safe?

Tony,
Easy call....
Runner is out because the wreck was not considered "continuous action".
mick