To reach or not reach

1st Q of a 2 person game, you're L & a player jumps to shoot a 20 FTer in the Ts lap. Recognizing his shot will be blocked, the player drops the ball, retrieves it (no whistle) then shoots the 15 FTer.

Would you go get that in front of your veteran partner?

3rd Q of the same game, you're T & a player gets a loose ball near the endline in front of the L with one knee on the ground, then stands up prior to dribbling the ball.

Again no whistle, are you going to get that?

[Smitty]

The obvious first response is: why are you looking there?

But since we sometimes see things, in the first case, can you be absolutely positively sure that the defensive player didn't touch the ball, causing it to drop? If you didn't see that play from a perfect angle and cannot be 100% sure of what you saw (not what you think you saw), you should let your partner live and die with it.

Second case, again you need to be 100% certain you saw it, and then I would only ever call it if I thought my partner was screened from seeing the kid's knee.

If it's a veteran partner, I'm letting him live and die with it. You shouldn't even be looking there in the first place.

Originally Posted by Smitty

The obvious first response is: why are you looking there?

But since we sometimes see things, in the first case, can you be absolutely positively sure that the defensive player didn't touch the ball, causing it to drop? If you didn't see that play from a perfect angle and cannot be 100% sure of what you saw (not what you think you saw), you should let your partner live and die with it.

Second case, again you need to be 100% certain you saw it, and then I would only ever call it if I thought my partner was screened from seeing the kid's knee.

If it's a veteran partner, I'm letting him live and die with it. You shouldn't even be looking there in the first place.

Uhh ohhh there's the ol' HS mentality rearing it's ugly head again

The exceptional official can chew bubble gum & walk at the same time, you know, multi-tasking.

I've invested quite a bit of change in myself over the past few summers by attending high level, quality camps, I've mixed in some HS camps as well.

It's funny because the HS camps I've attended all say stay in your primary, etc.

The DI & NBA camps I've attended says referee your PCA while seeing as much of the court as possible. As a matter of fact, they want two sets of eyes on particular plays with congested action areas. You know there are front & back sides to some plays right?

When I had the HS mentality I couldn't get past the first week of HS post-season. Then I started following the higher level camps advice & became a State Tourney Official. Go figure

Why are you looking there anyway is so basic...
If you have an unengaged match-up (non-competitive for the HS mentality refs) do you just stay there watching those 2 or 4 people or go to the next layer of the play that can hurt you???

In my first scenario, the shooter was a lefty, the T was at half-court on the shooters right side. So I snuck a peek to cover that left arm, if that's okay.
Many times a partners lack of hustle makes the exceptional official have to go outside of their PCA for the good of the GAME.

In the second scenario 8 players were below the FT line extended & I had nothing else going on, so I chose to look down there, if that's okay.

The other day I had a partner guessing on a 3 pt attempt. He didn't position adjust to see the feet & when he signalled the successful make, I said it was a two. He asked why was I looking up there anyway?? I said to help my partner get it right as we are all we got

FYI post entry plays in a 3 person game requires all 3 officials to work that play.
L looks for illegal contact by offense & defense on entry.
T picks up the pivot foot for travels.
Slot -errr- Ct is preparing for the curl play.

[Smitty]

You didn't say it was anything but a HS game, and it is 2 person, so that was where I was coming from. I understand that we see things out of our primary, especially when all (or most) of the players are out of our primary. But the parts of your situations that are most telling are that both scenarois you claim are right in front of your partner. Your veteran partner. So since you didn't like my answer, what would you do? What did you do? How did your partner react? I don't think there's a simple answer for these things. One could certainly argue that getting the play right is the most imoportant thing. My only concern is that you really saw it 100%. Often things look like something from far away but maybe you missed something. If you're comfortable making those calls, maybe you should. I would err on the side of not making those calls if they are right in front of my partner.

I find it interesting that you need to put your resume out there. I'm glad you're so impressed with yourself. Us HS mentality refs should get out of the way.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Smitty

I find it interesting that you need to put your resume out there. I'm glad you're so impressed with yourself. Us HS mentality refs should get out of the way.

Smitty - you're starting to sound a little cranky since you left the great state of Oregon. Maybe you should return to the "World's Medical Marijuana Capitol".

[Smitty]

I am sounding cranky today, but everyone is so sensitive.

Maybe it's the 103 degree heat.

Originally Posted by Smitty

You didn't say it was anything but a HS game, and it is 2 person, so that was where I was coming from. I understand that we see things out of our primary, especially when all (or most) of the players are out of our primary. But the parts of your situations that are most telling are that both scenarois you claim are right in front of your partner. Your veteran partner. So since you didn't like my answer, what would you do? What did you do? How did your partner react?

I didn't think I had to say what level it was as basketball is basketball. Sure there are different rules, floor mechanics & signals, but basketball is basketball. Why not position adjust the way the best do it? Why not have the team officiating concept & mentality like the best do?

It wasn't that I didn't like your answer. Actually I did what you said & let him live/die with those. But I felt quite bad when the defensive team in both instances came to me with "you know you saw that, help him out."
If it were a gammer, I would've made it right.
If my partner was of equal or less experience, then I would've made it right.

I did ask my partner at the next break, why it wasn't a travel? He said because the ball slipped out of his hands... I knew that wasn't true but decided to leave it alone. I didn't even ask him about the second sitch

Originally Posted by Smitty

I find it interesting that you need to put your resume out there. I'm glad you're so impressed with yourself. Us HS mentality refs should get out of the way.

~Ahhh~ I didn't mean it like that Smitty, just explaining the different thought process from level to level & why I think the higher ups do it best!
Hardly impressed with myself Smitty, for I am just a mere HS official myself. The only time I get a sniff of college or pro ball is the summer & I'll be damned if the summer isn't almost over
Well just like the Bronco fans say, there's always next year!

[bbcof83]

"Let him live and die with it" drives me nuts. Mostly because it's not just him that's dying with a bad miss or no-call; the whole crew suffers. Do you think the coaches care whose PCA it is? They perceive us as one unit and they just want us to get the dang play right. An egregious miss or no-call makes the whole crew look bad and makes for the beginning of a long night.

Working last night with a D-II Mens official. I was lead, he was C. Defender blows through a good screen just outside the opposite elbow from me, knocks the screener on his butt. I hesitate a sec but think the C is watching the dribbler who is using the screen and has missed it. So I take a big step out onto the court while putting air in it and raising my arm when I see the C is now calling the foul. So I back down and think nothing of it. At half the guy asks me why I'm looking in his primary. I told him I gave him a crack at it but thought he was going to pass or had missed the obvious illegal contact and I had to go grab it. He was ticked and told me never to do that again.

I just don't understand that logic. I was already looking up toward the FT line area anyway and saw a foul with 100% certainty. I think I was completely in the right but he thought the opposite.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

He was ticked and told me never to do that again.

I just don't understand that logic. I was already looking up toward the FT line area anyway and saw a foul with 100% certainty. I think I was completely in the right but he thought the opposite.

I have no use for cranky officials who would rather follow some "code" than get the play right. Whatever.

There's a reason why it's called PRIMARY coverage area.

[Smitty]

No worries. I am a little cranky today it seems. I apologize. I wish you luck with your development.

I think your second post was much more informative of the situation than your original post. Based on your original post, I would stand by my first answer.

The travel is a tough one if you think your partner truly missed it. I will let a travel go most of the time out of my area unless it's in the paint where my partner is clearly screened. Most of the time.

I would have been curious what your partner would have said about the other play - that seems like a much more interesting one. Guess we'll never know.

The only reason I commented on your boasting (or apparent boasting) is because from observation, I get the impression that college officials in general think they are superior to HS officials. I just hope you don't let it go to your head as you move up the ranks. Best of luck to you.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by Smitty

I will let a travel go most of the time out of my area unless it's in the paint where my partner is clearly screened. Most of the time.

Really? The only time I let anything go is a) if it's out of my area and I'm not 100% sure of the call or b) it's blatantly out of my area and/or sightline and there's no reason I should be looking there in the first place, because I'm gonna get a rash of crap from a coach as to why I'm not paying attention to my primary and I won't be able to give him a good reason.

One of the first games I ever did, I was lead about two feet off the lane line. The ball went from my primary to the other side of the court, then down to the baseline opposite me. The two players I was watching went down into the lane. As my head turned to follow them, I saw the person with the ball blatantly travel. My head was turned that direction because of the players I was following, I waited a split second to see if my partner would call it. He didn't, so I picked it up.

He gave me a rash of crap about "don't call outside your primary." If I had known what I know now, I wouldn't have taken the lecture from him, and would have told him "I call what I see. It's called the PRIMARY for a reason." But, I would've pre-gamed it with him anyway.

This is one of the main parts of my pre-game. I tell my partners "I don't want you to go looking for things in my primary just to look, but if you see something I don't, go get it. I'll do the same for you. This isn't a whistle-blowing ego contest. We're out there to call what we see."

Back@cha sir!

I see that with some college officials too & it's disgusting!! Especially since the decision-makers claim to be looking for good people (but that's another story).
In reality, officials who advance either know the right people, are in the right place at the right time &/or received an opportunity that others weren't afforded. It doesn't mean they are better than anybody, they just got a chance.

If I ever get an opportunity (because it's not promised) I vow not to become that guy.

And if I never get the chance, then I will try to be the best damn HS official I can be.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Really? The only time I let anything go is a) if it's out of my area and I'm not 100% sure of the call or b) it's blatantly out of my area and/or sightline and there's no reason I should be looking there in the first place, because I'm gonna get a rash of crap from a coach as to why I'm not paying attention to my primary and I won't be able to give him a good reason.

I agree with this completely.

[referee99]

ch1,
so, what did you do in the two instances in front of your veteran partner?
what was their reaction and feedback?

[Hugh Refner]

Originally Posted by fiasco

Really? The only time I let anything go is a) if it's out of my area and I'm not 100% sure of the call or b) it's blatantly out of my area and/or sightline and there's no reason I should be looking there in the first place, because I'm gonna get a rash of crap from a coach as to why I'm not paying attention to my primary and I won't be able to give him a good reason.

I agree with A and also agree with B except the part about the reason for not looking there is because of fear of what some coach might say. That's never a part of my decision making process.