To reach or not reach

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

When and what to do? Hmmmm...I have always held to the thinking that there are three types of fouls (based on severity and impact of the contact on the play). The fouls make you say:
1) That's a foul.
2) Oh my. That's a foul.
3) OH MY GOD!!! THAT'S A FOUL!!!

This is also the way I was taught. And, on #3 to have a patient whistle.

My problem sometimes is in Rec Leagues I watch more of the floor due to my inexperienced partners and I have occasionally "stepped on it" when I get an experienced partner(s) during the HS season. I must do better here.

I also agree with the comments in this thread about years of experience vs quality officiating. Good points for the younger officials. I will be going on HS yr 4 coming up and while I am getting better games now, I still have a ways to go yet (IMO).....still work to be done!

Originally Posted by tomegun

Does everyone realize that the amount of training, local games, etc. can make 5 years the equivalent to 20?

Absolutely, especially if the official does an honest self assessment through video breakdown of at least 50% of their games. Seeing plays plays Jan-Dec while others put the gear in attic after March doesn't hurt the accelerated development process either

Originally Posted by tomegun

Are you using the opinions of players to validate your opinion/position?

No sir, I'm using what I viewed on the play for validation. I am 110% sure of what I saw, but as previously noted... I left it alone. It wasn't a gammer, but grandma in the 5th row saw it
The opinions of the players (who happen to have a lot of credibility with me) just showed that they (1) trust me & (2) know that I could've made those plays right, as they have seen me make the CC in my PCA in those situations.
Even though travels always seem to be a POE the two situations I described are the elementary ones that we should get right.

I had the first one happen in my PCA at a camp last weekend, I got it right, got commended for making the CC

There was a great piece of advice given to us as far as reaching.

Follow the 3 B's:
Be LATE
Be RIGHT
Be NEEDED

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

No sir, I'm using what I viewed on the play for validation. I am 110% sure of what I saw, but as previously noted... I left it alone. It wasn't a gammer, but grandma in the 5th row saw it
The opinions of the players (who happen to have a lot of credibility with me) just showed that they (1) trust me & (2) know that I could've made those plays right, as they have seen me make the CC in my PCA in those situations.
Even though travels always seem to be a POE the two situations I described are the elementary ones that we should get right.

What the hell is a "gammer"? Do you mean "gamer"?

Grandma's opinion is insignficant. Be careful getting too cozy with the players and their opinions. Once they realize they have your trust, they can work that to their advantage. I know you think you know they are being sincere with you, but they will take advantage if they see an opportunity. Trust yourself and your partner, then you won't need to trust anyone else.

Originally Posted by Smitty

What the hell is a "gammer"? Do you mean "gamer"?

Grandma's opinion is insignficant. Be careful getting too cozy with the players and their opinions. Once they realize they have your trust, they can work that to their advantage. I know you think you know they are being sincere with you, but they will take advantage if they see an opportunity. Trust yourself and your partner, then you won't need to trust anyone else.

My badd gamer it is & I understand your points as well. I dont let them know they've got cred with me & I don't tell players I trust them either. But it's good to know when players trust you!

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

There was a great piece of advice given to us as far as reaching.

Follow the 3 B's:
Be LATE
Be RIGHT
Be NEEDED

I have not heard that one before. Thanks for sharing that Ch1town. I like it.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

The opinions of the players (who happen to have a lot of credibility with me) just showed that they (1) trust me & (2) know that I could've made those plays right, as they have seen me make the CC in my PCA in those situations.
..

It just shows that the players are playing you against your partners. They are telling your partners the exact same thing when you miss a call.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

It just shows that the players are playing you against your partners. They are telling your partners the exact same thing when you miss a call.

I hear what you're saying BNR, but I wouldn't go THAT far... you're making asumptions
I'm aware of the ol' divide & conquer routine. Doesn't work on me... my partner(s) is all that I have out there & we will be the best team on the court!

My sitch happened in a pro setting, where there is often more pushback from players (grown men) than in HS/NCAA. Our rule of thumb is to refer the complaintant to the calling or non-calling official.
We don't answer for each other.

You've got to be a good communicator or you won't be around long.

"Way to play through the contact" - let's 'em know you saw it & passed.

Many times, they respond with "if I missed was a whistle coming?"

"Perhaps" with a smile or wink.

That's the trust I'm speaking of.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

I hear what you're saying BNR, but I wouldn't go THAT far... you're making asumptions
I'm aware of the ol' divide & conquer routine. Doesn't work on me... my partner(s) is all that I have out there & we will be the best team on the court!

My sitch happened in a pro setting, where there is often more pushback from players (grown men) than in HS/NCAA. Our rule of thumb is to refer the complaintant to the calling or non-calling official.
We don't answer for each other.

You've got to be a good communicator or you won't be around long.

"Way to play through the contact" - let's 'em know you saw it & passed.

Many times, they respond with "if I missed was a whistle coming?"

"Perhaps" with a smile or wink.

That's the trust I'm speaking of.

I ref'd Pro-Am this weekend, those players weren't any different. And my rule of thumb at each level (HS/NCAA/Pro-Am) is to refer any complainant to the calling official.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I ref'd Pro-Am this weekend, those players weren't any different.

Not sure about the league in the 2up 2down, but we have current NBA & D-League players & they are very different from HS/NCAA players

More pushback, but less time to moan as the game is very fast paced.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

I hear what you're saying BNR, but I wouldn't go THAT far... you're making asumptions
I'm aware of the ol' divide & conquer routine. Doesn't work on me... my partner(s) is all that I have out there & we will be the best team on the court!

My sitch happened in a pro setting, where there is often more pushback from players (grown men) than in HS/NCAA. Our rule of thumb is to refer the complaintant to the calling or non-calling official.
We don't answer for each other.

You've got to be a good communicator or you won't be around long.

"Way to play through the contact" - let's 'em know you saw it & passed.

Many times, they respond with "if I missed was a whistle coming?"

"Perhaps" with a smile or wink.

That's the trust I'm speaking of.

I am going to comment more on this topic at a later date but just to address your statement to pro players that he did a good job playing through the contact is not a good idea IMO. In fact I would say a lot of guys would say its a bad idea. There is a better likelihood that it will end up hurting you than helping you. Most the pro guys I know would say back to you something about it don't matter so just blow the damn whistle. I would only address the play if the player brings it up.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I am going to comment more on this topic at a later date but just to address your statement to pro players that he did a good job playing through the contact is not a good idea IMO. In fact I would say a lot of guys would say its a bad idea. There is a better likelihood that it will end up hurting you than helping you. Most the pro guys I know would say back to you something about it don't matter so just blow the damn whistle. I would only address the play if the player brings it up.

Perhaps... just like communication with the coaches (at any level) you gotta know who you're dealing with. Being my 3rd yr in the league, I know who I can/can't say those types of things to.

As a matter of fact, comments like that (to certain players/coaches) helps the game in some instances! Sometimes it diffuses the pushback when you feel it coming on.
Acknowledging non-verbal concerns of players/coaches is not ALWAYS a bad thing. Why not resolve the situation before it blows up? Another part of GM skills.

I guess one would have to have a "feel" for the game to do those types of things successfully

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Perhaps... just like communication with the coaches (at any level) you gotta know who you're dealing with. Being my 3rd yr in the league, I know who I can/can't say those types of things to.

As a matter of fact, comments like that (to certain players/coaches) helps the game in some instances! Sometimes it diffuses the pushback when you feel it coming on.
Acknowledging non-verbal concerns of players/coaches is not ALWAYS a bad thing. Why not resolve the situation before it blows up? Another part of GM skills.

I guess one would have to have a "feel" for the game to do those types of things successfully

I agree with you on your points but players don't discern contact like we officials do so as I said previously I don't see how telling a player, even if you are attempting to thwart his non verbal reaction to the play, that he did well playing through the contact will aid you in the long term cause I am not only telling you but I promise you it will bite you. But sometimes as a young official you have to get bit before he truly takes hold. I definitely know that and am still learning that but I have also learned to listen a little more often to my more experienced partners so that I don't have to get bit. Would you mind me asking how old you are? You just sound a lot like I did in my early years of officiating. Heck im still in my early years!