Two Questions - Traveling? and Goaltending?

[drinkeii]

Hi - I have 2 questions - both of these are prompted by my students. One I can't explain, and the other, I am just checking to see if my explanation is right. (I am a PIAA Basketball official)

1) If a player places the ball on the floor, prior to starting a dribble, and rolls the ball around with his hand, is this some kind of violation or not? I don't quite know what to tell them. Then what happens if they pick up the ball? Can they start a dribble at this point? What about if the situation had them stopping a dribble, putting the ball down, and rolling it around?

2) This one seems a little more cut and dried. A1 goes up for a layup. The ball hits the front of the backboard, and skips away, still heading up and toward the basket. B1 bats the ball, outside of the imaginary cylinder, while the ball is still on its upward ascent. The kids are saying that is considered goaltending, because the ball hit the backboard. I told them that the rule for goaltending only says "on its downward descent, outside the imaginary cylinder above the rim" - they don't believe me! Can I get a confirmation on this one (or a slap on the wrist if I'm wrong, which I don't think I am)?

Thank you very much!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by drinkeii
Hi - I have 2 questions - both of these are prompted by my students. One I can't explain, and the other, I am just checking to see if my explanation is right. (I am a PIAA Basketball official)

2) This one seems a little more cut and dried. A1 goes up for a layup. The ball hits the front of the backboard, and skips away, still heading up and toward the basket. B1 bats the ball, outside of the imaginary cylinder, while the ball is still on its upward ascent. The kids are saying that is considered goaltending, because the ball hit the backboard. I told them that the rule for goaltending only says "on its downward descent, outside the imaginary cylinder above the rim" - they don't believe me! Can I get a confirmation on this one (or a slap on the wrist if I'm wrong, which I don't think I am)?

Thank you very much!

#2 is not GT, you have it right. Note for BI the ball only
needs to be in the cylinder above the basket, on it's way
up or down, and does not have to be a shot.

[drinkeii]

#2 is not GT, you have it right. Note for BI the ball only
needs to be in the cylinder above the basket, on it's way
up or down, and does not have to be a shot. [/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks - I knew it wasn't BI - trying to explain that one to high school kids, who don't even know what BI is and just know the media definition of goaltending is fun enough!

Anyone have ideas on #1?

[devdog69]

Originally posted by drinkeii

1) If a player places the ball on the floor, prior to starting a dribble, and rolls the ball around with his hand, is this some kind of violation or not? I don't quite know what to tell them. Then what happens if they pick up the ball? Can they start a dribble at this point? What about if the situation had them stopping a dribble, putting the ball down, and rolling it around?


Thank you very much!

4-15-4 Note 3
It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.

[drinkeii]

Originally posted by devdog69

4-15-4 Note 3
It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.

Ok, but what if they place it on the floor, and start walking, pushing or rolling the ball along the floor? That is the circumstance I'm referring to.

[Brian Watson]

#1 looks bad, but is legal.

The rule Dev cited is the closest thing to this sitch, but it is ok to do.

Remember, if the book does not say you can't, then you can.

[BktBallRef]

Play #1 is not covered in the rule book or case book. Perhaps that's why Dan wouldn't touch it!

The only thing in the rule book about rolling the ball is in 4-31 which says that it's a pass to roll the ball to another player. Obviously, in your play, another player is not involved. I would consider the ball to be loose, with no player control. Although it's obvious that the player is controlling the ball, rolling the ball on the floor does not meet the definition of player control.

BTW, I've never seen it happen. I would try to focus the kids on plays they're more likely to see.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Play #1 is not covered in the rule book or case book. Perhaps that's why Dan wouldn't touch it!

...

BTW, I've never seen it happen. I would try to focus the kids on plays they're more likely to see.

Didn't touch what?

I've never seen this either but if I did I would simply
kick the ball into the stands. This is very unusual but I
can get away with it because I have great court presence...

[ripian]

#1. Ugly but legal.

#2. Is not BI or GT. This is a legal play under NCAA and FIBA. In the Pro game however this is a violation.

[Jurassic Referee]

[/B][/QUOTE]

I've never seen this either but if I did I would simply
kick the ball into the stands. This is very unusual but I
can get away with it because I have great court presence...

[/B][/QUOTE]Sure glad I wasn't drinking a coffee when I read that!

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I've never seen this either but if I did I would simply
kick the ball into the stands. This is very unusual but I
can get away with it because I have great court presence...

[/B][/QUOTE]Sure glad I wasn't drinking a coffee when I read that! [/B][/QUOTE]

[finnref]

# 1 is legal. It is a pass according to the rule book definition. Therefore, there is still team control but not player control. It is the same as the player throwing the ball for one bounce and then catching it, only now it is called a dribble. If the player now dribbles, it is a violation. So in the play described I would consider the play was legal but if the player then dribbled, or repeated the rolling the ball one the floor, it would also be a violation, i.e. a double dribble.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by finnref
# 1 is legal. It is a pass according to the rule book definition. Therefore, there is still team control but not player control. It is the same as the player throwing the ball for one bounce and then catching it, only now it is called a dribble. If the player now dribbles, it is a violation. So in the play described I would consider the play was legal but if the player then dribbled, or repeated the rolling the ball one the floor, it would also be a violation, i.e. a double dribble.

Here we go again!I could see this coming.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by finnref
# 1 is legal. It is a pass according to the rule book definition. It is the same as the player throwing the ball for one bounce and then catching it, only now it is called a dribble. If the player now dribbles, it is a violation. So in the play described I would consider the play was legal but if the player then dribbled, or repeated the rolling the ball one the floor, it would also be a violation, i.e. a double dribble.

I'm sorry but that makes no sense whatsoever. First, you say it's a pass, then you say it's the same as a dribble. You said there's no player control, but there is PC during a dribble. The definition of a pass is throwing or rolling the ball to a teammate. How is rolling the ball to yourself a pass?

So which is it, a pass, or a dribble?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Here we go again! I could see this coming.

Me too. That's why I stayed out