I had to cringe...

Went over to the arena on campus last night (I teach at a community college) to watch the women's in a regular season game. It was quite a sloppy game, and our ladies were able to come back and win it in the waning minutes. Some observations:

1. I looked up in the NCAA rule book online after the game, but couldn't find anything, but the officials were using the team control signal for a player control foul sometimes, and then using the player control signal at others, but it was obvious by the number reported it was a player control foul (It doesn't slip by me that the person with the ball is in player control!). Does NCAAW have a distinction that they do not signal player control, but rather team control, or was this crew being inconsistent with their signals?

2. I had to cringe several times, when a foul was called on the rebounds, that it was signaled as "over the back" (you know, the "forbidden" signal). Of course, no such signal is diagrammed in the NCAA book, unless I missed it.

3. For some reason, our head coach was not there, and his assistant took the reins for the evening. When the crew introduced themselves to the coaches before the game, I noticed they were looking at each other puzzled when they realized the assistant was coaching. During the game, their interactions (well, at least for 2 of the 3) seemed like they didn't want to talk to her, or were really brief. They just didn't seem right, when compared to the visiting team's coach, who they were pleasant with and more tolerant of, even when this 6'9" guy went flying from one end of the coach's box to the other with his arms flailing and screaming for a call at one point. For those of you who do college ball, I guess I should ask this: If you were working a game where you realized the normal head coach was not there, and the assistant coach was taking the reins for the night, does that change how you officiate? I wouldn't change a thing, but it just seems like this crew did last night (or it appears they did).

(and yes, I double checked...no full moon last night!)

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

.... but the officials were using the team control signal for a player control foul sometimes)

After one of my JV games earlier this yr we were being critiqued by the V officials - good guys. Tough but fair. One normally goes to the state tourney and also does college ball. He told me to stick around, watch their game and sit in at half-time. I did.

During their half-time review, he asked me what I saw. And I told them some of my observations and questions - one of which is the same thing you stated here. "Why did you use the team control signal on the obvious player control foul?"

He said, "I always do that and don't use the PC foul signal. That's the way I am. I like it and everyone knows the call."

He wasn't being a smart azz and acknowledged my noticing it. Right or wrong I understood and let it go.

Not saying this is the case for you, but I noticed the same thing once too.

[Adam]

Did you notice if it was one official or the other making the TC signal?

Originally Posted by grunewar

After one of my JV games earlier this yr we were being critiqued by the V officials - good guys. Tough but fair. One normally goes to the state tourney and also does college ball. He told me to stick around, watch their game and sit in at half-time. I did.

During their half-time review, he asked me what I saw. And I told them some of my observations and questions - one of which is the same thing you stated here. "Why did you use the team control signal on the obvious player control foul?"

He said, "I always do that and don't use the PC foul signal. That's the way I am. I like it and everyone knows the call."

He wasn't being a smart azz and acknowledged my noticing it. Right or wrong I understood and let it go.

Not saying this is the case for you, but I noticed the same thing once too.

Maybe you're right...maybe that's the case for these guys too, but I noticed some hesitation on their part as they were trying to signal it. That's why I was becoming a little perplexed at it.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Did you notice if it was one official or the other making the TC signal?

2 of the 3 would do the TC signal for a PC foul, while the 3rd used the PC signal. Yes, the game was sloppy enough ALL three called PC fouls throughout.

Plus I should add that of the 2 that signaled the TC foul would give the TC as a prelim, and then do the PC as the reported. The other one gave TC as prelim, and then hesitated when giving TC as the reported, looking as if he was trying to decide if it was PC or TC. It just didn't look right.

[Adam]

I'm still finding the signal awkward. Maybe they are as well.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

1. I looked up in the NCAA rule book online after the game, but couldn't find anything, but the officials were using the team control signal for a player control foul sometimes, and then using the player control signal at others, but it was obvious by the number reported it was a player control foul (It doesn't slip by me that the person with the ball is in player control!). Does NCAAW have a distinction that they do not signal player control, but rather team control, or was this crew being inconsistent with their signals?

NCAAW does not make the Player control signal - just punch it in the direction the ball will be going.

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

2. I had to cringe several times, when a foul was called on the rebounds, that it was signaled as "over the back" (you know, the "forbidden" signal). Of course, no such signal is diagrammed in the NCAA book, unless I missed it.

No we do not have that signal either, although a couple of weeks ago I was working with a very experiienced Womens official NCAA DI and DII who actually told someone that "Over the Back" was actually a call in NCAA and that signal was valid. (as Ron White says " things that make you go BURRRRRR ...!")

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

3. For some reason, our head coach was not there, and his assistant took the reins for the evening. When the crew introduced themselves to the coaches before the game, I noticed they were looking at each other puzzled when they realized the assistant was coaching. During the game, their interactions (well, at least for 2 of the 3) seemed like they didn't want to talk to her, or were really brief. They just didn't seem right, when compared to the visiting team's coach, who they were pleasant with and more tolerant of, even when this 6'9" guy went flying from one end of the coach's box to the other with his arms flailing and screaming for a call at one point. For those of you who do college ball, I guess I should ask this: If you were working a game where you realized the normal head coach was not there, and the assistant coach was taking the reins for the night, does that change how you officiate? I wouldn't change a thing, but it just seems like this crew did last night (or it appears they did).

I do not, and I really do not know anyone who does, what do you care who is coaching the game - as long as you know who it is and who you should be communicating with?
Now there is a coach I have run into in the past who will not shake hands with the officials - I mean he walks to the end of the bench to avoid you when you come over, and sends his assistant over to great you, at home he doesn't even come out on the floor until introductions to avoid it, (I do not know if he has a problem with like Howie Mandel, or if he is just being difficult), this conduct does turn off some officials as far as how they communicate with him through out the game.

[jeschmit]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

...would give the TC as a prelim, and then do the PC as the reported.

I seem to do this as well, only when it's a bang-bang play and I need to come up with something on the spot. If it's an obvious PC foul, when the defender has LGP for a while before the offensive player makes contact, then I might make the PC prelim as well. Usually I only do TC as a prelim and give the report as a PC. I know it's not necessarily the textbook mechanic, but it's what I feel comfortable with out on the court.

[JugglingReferee]

I have found that as Trail, I skip the PC signal, and just whistle and point with the fist in the other direction. At the table, I do use the PC signal.

As Lead, sometimes I use the same mechanic as I do when Trail, and other times I do use the PC signal with the point in the other direction. At the table, I do use the PC signal.

I suppose I should be consistent.

[M&M Guy]

RUW - In NCAA-W, the PC foul signal (hand behind the head) is no longer used; only the team-control signal is used for all player-control and team-control fouls. The philosophy is the there is no real difference; penalty enforcement is the same in both cases. So, perhaps one of the officials still works a lot of HS ball, or perhaps also works NCAA-M?

As to your general questions about the officials, you might think of it in these terms - community college and other juco leagues in NCAA are comparable to grade schools vs. HS varsity. A lot of times the officials in these leagues are starting out and are not as experienced with NCAA rules and mechanics, or there are assignors that treat these leagues as "not as important" as their "main" leagues. I knew of one assignor not too far away that assigned both women's and men's games in a particular league. He would assign some of his men's officials to women's games, just to have bodies to fill in spots. Of course, they were not as familiar with the women's rules and mechanics, so there were bound to be some issues such as what you witnessed.

So, think of it in terms of what type of officials you see in a grade school game. You might see just as many "less-experienced" officials as you do good ones. Then, as you move up the ladder (grade school to HS varsity, or juco to D-1), you will see more of the good ones.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

Went over to the arena on campus last night (I teach at a community college) to watch the women's in a regular season game. It was quite a sloppy game, and our ladies were able to come back and win it in the waning minutes. Some observations:

1. I looked up in the NCAA rule book online after the game, but couldn't find anything, but the officials were using the team control signal for a player control foul sometimes, and then using the player control signal at others, but it was obvious by the number reported it was a player control foul (It doesn't slip by me that the person with the ball is in player control!). Does NCAAW have a distinction that they do not signal player control, but rather team control, or was this crew being inconsistent with their signals?

2. I had to cringe several times, when a foul was called on the rebounds, that it was signaled as "over the back" (you know, the "forbidden" signal). Of course, no such signal is diagrammed in the NCAA book, unless I missed it.

3. For some reason, our head coach was not there, and his assistant took the reins for the evening. When the crew introduced themselves to the coaches before the game, I noticed they were looking at each other puzzled when they realized the assistant was coaching. During the game, their interactions (well, at least for 2 of the 3) seemed like they didn't want to talk to her, or were really brief. They just didn't seem right, when compared to the visiting team's coach, who they were pleasant with and more tolerant of, even when this 6'9" guy went flying from one end of the coach's box to the other with his arms flailing and screaming for a call at one point. For those of you who do college ball, I guess I should ask this: If you were working a game where you realized the normal head coach was not there, and the assistant coach was taking the reins for the night, does that change how you officiate? I wouldn't change a thing, but it just seems like this crew did last night (or it appears they did).

(and yes, I double checked...no full moon last night!)

What I find amusing about the whole Player Control Foul and Team Control Foul signal business is:

1) NCAA Women's: Has only a TCF signal and uses it for all PCF and TCF's.

2) NCAA Men's: Has only a PCF signal and only uses it for PCF's and does not have a TCF signal.

3) NFHS: Has a PCF signal which is used for PCF's and a TCF signal which is used for all non-PCF TCF's.

TCF's are not new to the NFHS and NCAA. Back in the day, prior to the 1977-78 or 1978-79 season (yes the Nat'l. Bkb. Comm. of the U.S. and Canada days) we had TCF's and the only signal that we had was the PCF signal. If the TCF was not a PCF we just signaled the type of foul and pointed the other direction. It should be noted that back then we had a PCF, we first had to signal what type of foul (block, charge, etc.) and then PCF.

MTD, Sr.