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-   -   Buy your way out of violation? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/51689-buy-your-way-out-violation.html)

Nevadaref Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hugheske44 (Post 579921)
Yes in my original question, the ball is lost outside of the semi-circle, I realize they can do whatever they want with the ball in the circle.

The player has limited options on what to do once they lose the ball, go chase the ball--violation, let the 10 seconds expire--violation, call time out---violation???

My partner just said he may have seen it in Referee magazine, not the case book. I told him I cant find it specifically in the case book. Or possibly it couldve been in an older casebook since they do change them every so often?~~~
The official should not grant the time-out request as it was made at an improper time. Per 5-8-3 the ball must be dead, a player from the team must have control, or the ball must be at the disposal of the requesting team. After the free-thrower loses the ball none of those conditions exist.

As others have noted, there is a new casebook ruling this season which states that the free-thrower violates if he loses the ball in a manner such that he cannot regain control of it without leaving the semi-circle.

Juulie Downs Tue Feb 17, 2009 05:18am
So the answer to the original question is, "No. The coach can't 'buy out' of a violation." Not even an arcane, little-understood violation such as this one.

So the appropriate sequence would be:

ref bounces ball to shooter
shooter catches, adjusts feet, dribbles, bounce it away
coach yells, "Time Out!!"
ref whistles, signals violation
ref turns to coach and asks, "Do you still want the TO?"

Is that correct?

JugglingReferee Tue Feb 17, 2009 07:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juulie Downs (Post 580271)
So the answer to the original question is, "No. The coach can't 'buy out' of a violation." Not even an arcane, little-understood violation such as this one.

So the appropriate sequence would be:

ref bounces ball to shooter
shooter catches, adjusts feet, dribbles, bounce it away
coach yells, "Time Out!!"
ref whistles, signals violation
ref turns to coach and asks, "Do you still want the TO?"

Is that correct?
If I was being evaluated, and I used the procedure you did, I would expect a checkmark! :p

(Assuming you left out the part where the official voices how many shots are left, since that part of the situation was understood.)

mbyron Tue Feb 17, 2009 07:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 580174)
*9.1.1 SITUATION: A1, at the free-throw line to attempt a free throw: (a) muffs the pass from the official and it rolls forward; or (b) while performing his/her habitual dribbles prior to the release, accidentally allows the ball to deflect off his/her foot into the lane. RULING: In (a), the official should sound the whistle to prevent any violations and then start the free throw procedure again. No freethrow violation should be called in this situation. In (b), a free-throw violation shall be called on A1. (9-1-3a, e)
In light of this new case play, I withdraw post #2 of this thread. :o

Nevadaref Tue Feb 17, 2009 08:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 579900)
Losing the ball is not a violation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 580174)
*9.1.1 SITUATION: A1, at the free-throw line to attempt a free throw: (a) muffs the pass from the official and it rolls forward; or (b) while performing his/her habitual dribbles prior to the release, accidentally allows the ball to deflect off his/her foot into the lane. RULING: In (a), the official should sound the whistle to prevent any violations and then start the free throw procedure again. No freethrow violation should be called in this situation. In (b), a free-throw violation shall be called on A1. (9-1-3a, e)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 580281)
In light of this new case play, I withdraw post #2 of this thread. :o
Done with your usual grace and elegance. :)

Lotto Tue Feb 17, 2009 08:41am
The NCAA ruling is different
 
From the case book:

A.R. 186. A1, at the free throw line to attempt a free throw, receives the ball from the official, who starts a silent count. While bouncing the ball, A1 strikes the ball on his/her knee or leg accidentally and the ball rolls toward the basket between the free throw lane lines.

RULING: The official shall sound the whistle at once, causing the ball to become dead. The official should caution the free thrower, place the ball at the disposal of A1 and start a new silent count. (Rule 9-1.2.a, 6-1.4.c,d and 6-5.1.d)

Chess Ref Tue Feb 17, 2009 08:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 580233)
As others have noted, there is a new casebook ruling this season which states that the free-thrower violates if he loses the ball in a manner such that he cannot regain control of it without leaving the semi-circle.
How about if defender gives player the ball back ?

Indianaref Tue Feb 17, 2009 09:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chess Ref (Post 580294)
How about if defender gives player the ball back ?
A free-throw violation shall be called immediately when the free thrower looses/deflects the ball out of the semi circle.

cardinalfan Tue Feb 17, 2009 09:16am
I've never had this happen, and I hope it doesn't anytime soon.

hugheske44 Tue Feb 17, 2009 02:53pm
Thank you!
 
Im glad I found this board! Thanks again guys, always interesting discussions on here!~~~

AKOFL Tue Feb 17, 2009 05:20pm
I've had it happen three times in four days. Twice it was the same official. The first one was a violation, second was a bad pass and catch. The third was a sweet preshot dribble of the foot for a violation. Never had it happen in 10 plus years of calling before. Funny how things come up on the forum and then happen. Scary really!:eek:

Juulie Downs Tue Feb 17, 2009 07:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 580279)
If I was being evaluated, and I used the procedure you did, I would expect a checkmark! :p

(Assuming you left out the part where the official voices how many shots are left, since that part of the situation was understood.)
checkmark, meaning bad? Or good? what's right or wrong about what I said?

Adam Wed Feb 18, 2009 09:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 580233)
The official should not grant the time-out request as it was made at an improper time. Per 5-8-3 the ball must be dead, a player from the team must have control, or the ball must be at the disposal of the requesting team. After the free-thrower loses the ball none of those conditions exist.
Really? I wasn't aware of a rule that said "at the disposal of" ends if the free-thrower loses control. Is this also true on a throw-in?

A1 has the ball for a throw-in, starts to pass and thinks twice. He fumbles it away, still OOB, but out of his 3 foot spot. Is it still at his disposal? Can they request a TO?

What about an endline throw-in?

Nevadaref Wed Feb 18, 2009 09:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 580661)
Really? I wasn't aware of a rule that said "at the disposal of" ends if the free-thrower loses control. Is this also true on a throw-in?
That is the basic point of the new case play ruling. If the FTer can no longer reach the ball, then it's clearly not at his disposal. If he sets it down within the semi-circle, then that's okay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 580661)
A1 has the ball for a throw-in, starts to pass and thinks twice. He fumbles it away, still OOB, but out of his 3 foot spot. Is it still at his disposal? Can they request a TO?
If the ball goes out of his three-foot spot, he can't go get it without violating, so it's no longer at his disposal. No disposal = no time-out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 580661)
What about an endline throw-in?
I have maintained that if the ball is somewhere that the player is allowed, then it's at his disposal. So anywhere behind the end line is ok in this case.

Adam Wed Feb 18, 2009 09:49am
So this is just intuitive thinking on your part, not really a solid rule basis. I'm not knocking it, it makes sense, just trying to grasp it.


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