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Old Sat Feb 14, 2009, 09:01pm
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Picky, Picky, Picky ???

If you're only interested in practical threads, then stop right now, and move onto the next thread, because this is one of those strictly by the book situations.

Last free throw attempt. Two person crew (it's Connecticut, what can I say?). I'm trail, opposite table, of course. My partner is lead, tableside, of course. Shooter misses everything, to the right side of the rim, which happened to be opposite the table, and the ball hits the floor on the side of the lane opposite the table. I blow my whistle for the violation, and stay in my position ready to become the new lead after the throwin for the free throw violation, when I notice that my partner, who was tableside, is moving to the side of the lane opposite tableside. So I rotate over to tableside, to become the new lead, as he hands the ball to the throw in player opposite table side on the endline.

At halftime, I ask him why he forced me to rotate, and he replied that the violation was on that side of the lane. My question is, was he right? I might add that I am not a lazy official. I don't mind rotating when I'm supposed to. When I'm the lead, putting the ball in play after a foul, or violation, in the lane, and if the foul, or violation, is more than a few inches one side, or the other, of the basket line, I'm putting the ball in play on that side of the lane, and I expect my partner, as trail, to rotate, if need be; and I would expect my partner, as the lead, to do the same thing, and I would rotate as the trail.

Here's the relevant part of the rule:

RULE 9 VIOLATIONS
SECTION 1 FREE-THROW PROVISIONS
ART. 3 . . . After the ball is placed at the disposal of a free thrower:
a. He/she shall throw within 10 seconds to cause the ball to enter the basket
or touch the ring before the free throw ends.
PENALTIES: (Section 1)
1. If the first or only violation is by the free thrower or a teammate, the ball
becomes dead when the violation occurs and no point can be scored by
that throw. The following out-of-bounds provisions apply if no further free
throws are to be administered:
a. If the violation occurs during a free throw for a personal foul, other
than intentional or flagrant, the ball is awarded to the opponents for a
throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the violation.


In my mind, the violation is for not touching the ring, which is exactly on the basket line, so the throwin can be made from any side of the lane, so the officials can just stay where they were.

In my partner's mind, the violation was where the ball hit the floor, instead of the ring, so the throwin would be on the side where the ball hit the floor, which could force a rotation.

Also, if the violation was for an offensive player entering the lane too early, I, as the lead, would make the throwin from the side of the lane on which the violation occurred, which could cause a rotation.

The same philosophy might apply to a three second violation, which is also "awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the violation". Where is the violation? Was the violation that the player was inside the lane rather than being outside the lane, in which case the throwin could be from either side of the lane, or was the violation that the player was in a particular spot in the lane after three seconds, which could be closer to one side of the lane than the other, which could initiate a rotation?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 09:34pm.
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2009, 09:20pm
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Well. in the situation you describe. I would not have forced a rotation I would have simply bounced the ball to the team entitled to the throw-in.

I could see it both ways.
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2009, 09:24pm
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Billy - get a life, DIEBLER'S ON!
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2009, 09:31pm
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Please Move On To The Next Thread ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by grunewar View Post
Billy, get a life.
grunewar: What part of, "If you're only interested in practical threads, then stop right now, and move onto the next thread, because this is one of those strictly by the book situations", did you not understand?
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2009, 09:32pm
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Right Way, And Wrong Way ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by truerookie View Post
I could see it both ways.
Me too. What's the right way?
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2009, 09:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
grunewar: What part of, "If you're only interested in practical threads, then stop right now, and move onto the next thread, because this is one of those strictly by the book situations", did you not understand?
Any violation between the lane lines and below the top of the key can be taken out on the endline on either side of the lane.
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2009, 09:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
grunewar: What part of, "If you're only interested in practical threads, then stop right now, and move onto the next thread, because this is one of those strictly by the book situations", did you not understand?
Alrighty then.... I put the ball it in nearest where the violation is (to me that's where the ball went out or missed the ring, or player entered the lane), and am consistent with that. If that forces a switch so be it. I work with a lot of young officials and try to emphasize the out of bounds locations too - not just a whim (many try to put it in wherever...). Again, trying to be consistent. JMO
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Last edited by grunewar; Sat Feb 14, 2009 at 09:41pm.
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2009, 09:57pm
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Thanks, But ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by refguy View Post
Any violation between the lane lines and below the top of the key can be taken out on the endline on either side of the lane.
Citation please.
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2009, 10:03pm
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Thanks, Almost There ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by grunewar View Post
I put the ball it in nearest where the violation is (to me that's where the ball went out or missed the ring, or player entered the lane), and am consistent with that. If that forces a switch so be it.
I agree with you 100% on putting the ball in play nearest the violation, and I'm 100% with you on, "if that forces a switch so be it", as well as 100% behind you on a player entering the lane too early. I'm just not convinced about the missed free throw. You are probably correct, but I would like some more input.
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2009, 10:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Citation please.
On the shooter's violation, I don't know. Administer without a rotation, IMO.
I disagree that any thing anywhere in the lane can go to either side. Look at the diagram for throwin spots, and it tells you to go to whichever side of the lane the violation or foul occurred. When in doubt, take the easier route.
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2009, 11:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grunewar View Post
Billy - get a life, DIEBLER'S ON!
I just watched the game and I'm still waiting for Diebler to show up.
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2009, 11:44pm
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I probably should have gone on, however I am here and also very picky,picky, picky.
With that said I can see both sides

1. Not to rotate because the actual violation was the ball not hitting the rim, therfore the violation actually happens in the center and either side would be acceptable. i.e. stay put.

2. I can see someone saying to put the ball in play to the actual side of the rim the ball missed on, because we work hard at putting the ball in play closes to the violation, (not to confuse OOB vs. FT violation) and have all worked with individuals who don't, knowing full well teams and coaches design plays based upon were the ball will be inbounded. In this case I am not sure it matters.( Unless your post man is left or right handed.) But the actual violation was at the rim or the miss of said rim.

With that said, I have to go with #1 as the violation occured at the rim, the side is irrelevant. With that said I have seen and worked with individuals on a bc violation who inbounded the ball at the division line, rather than the sideline or endline closes to were the ball was first touched by A (i.e. where the violation occured.) So I think that logic prevails.
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Old Sat Feb 14, 2009, 11:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Citation please.
Officials Manual 2.2.2 A2. The ball is taken out of bounds at the appropriate spot according to Diagram 2-5. The spot should be designated by the administering official. Then apply Boxing-in Principle 2.0.3.
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Old Sun Feb 15, 2009, 12:40am
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Put it in on either side, it doesn't matter. What if the ball falls completely short of the rim directly in the center? Then how do you figure out which side to put it in on?
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Old Sun Feb 15, 2009, 02:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zm1283 View Post
Put it in on either side, it doesn't matter. What if the ball falls completely short of the rim directly in the center? Then how do you figure out which side to put it in on?
Sheez, Billy, you really do need to get a life!!
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