The ultimate confirmation

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by gslefeb

The OP says "avoid the PC, A2 lifted his pivot before he put the ball on the floor."

One can lift his pivot foot drop the ball to the floor (a bounce pass?) but not be the first to touch it.

I think the rule is: You can not left your pivot foot to START a dribble. The START means pushing the ball to the floor. How / When do you determine if it is a start of a dribble or a bounce pass? My interpretation is if the player is the first to touch when it bounces up.

The rule reads ".....pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released to start a dribble."

It is judgment about whether it is a dribble or could be a pass.

Definition of a dribble says ".....a player in control....pushes the ball to the floor once or several times."

By definition it is not necessary for the player to touch the ball again.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The rule reads ".....pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released to start a dribble."

It is judgment about whether it is a dribble or could be a pass.

Definition of a dribble says ".....a player in control....pushes the ball to the floor once or several times."

By definition it is not necessary for the player to touch the ball again.

Disagree. By definition of a "pass", you are wrong imo.

The definition of a "pass" under rule 4-31 is met if the player doesn't touch the ball again after first pushing it to the floor and a teammate is the next player to touch it.

It is a judgment call, but if you lay off the whistle to see the play develop, the play calls itself. Player who pushed the ball to the floor touches it first again----> dribble. Player pushes it to the floor and a teammate touches it first----> pass.

Would you automatically call a bounce pass to a teammate a dribble?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Disagree. By definition of a "pass", you are wrong imo.

The definition of a "pass" under rule 4-31 is met if the player doesn't touch the ball again after first pushing it to the floor and a teammate is the next player to touch it.

It is a judgment call, but if you lay off the whistle to see the play develop, the play calls itself. Player who pushed the ball to the floor touches it first again----> dribble. Player pushes it to the floor and a teammate touches it first----> pass.

Would you automatically call a bounce pass to a teammate a dribble?

We have had this conversation before. It is apparent that neither of us has changed his mind. In the play under discussion, it was the start of a fast break. The player caught the ball and pushed it to the floor to start a dribble, but was flustered when he turned to find a defender in his path. This disrupted his rhythm, and caused him to lift his pivot before he released the ball, resulting in a traveling violation. If he had stumbled and fallen somehow in the middle of the play and had not touched the ball again, in my judgment it was still obviously the start of a dribble. No way was it a pass.
End of story.