I "T"ed up the score keeper.....

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

No misprint. I "T"ed up the score keeper for the visitors today. He's the guy keeping the book at the table.

I report the foul "12 black Illegal use of the hands", and when I do, the coach yells ( and BTW, he is winning at the time by 10 points ) "She wasn't any where near the play" The book keeper yells " She wasn't any where near the play." Bang. T Because I am not going to have the score keeper yelling at me during the game.

We also sat the coach for the rest of the game. I have never "T"ed at score keeper, but I figure he is part of the coaches staff and therefore, coach gets to ride the bench for the rest of the game. Right?

BTW, 12 black was where I said she was and she did foul the player and it was only her 1st foul....3rd quarter for your processing info.

I disagree. The scorekeeper is not part of bench personnel, even if the person is clearly associated with one of the teams. That person isn't even sitting in the team bench area.

You should have simply removed the offending scorekeeper. No T.

The scorers and timers are part of the officials for the contest. They are the table crew. Check rule 2.

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I disagree. The scorekeeper is not part of bench personnel, even if the person is clearly associated with one of the teams. That person isn't even sitting in the team bench area.

You should have simply removed the offending scorekeeper. No T.

The scorers and timers are part of the officials for the contest. They are the table crew. Check rule 2.

Agreed, just have him removed and replaced. The T was unjustied and you cant back it up with the rules.

[Terrapins Fan]

Originally Posted by IREFU2

Agreed, just have him removed and replaced. The T was unjustified and you cant back it up with the rules.

I understand your point. My point was that the coach did appoint him as the score keeper and therefore, yes a part of his crew.

I used to coach ( assistant ) and many times I had to do the books because we did not have a scorekeeper show up. I knew I was not allowed to coach from the table and I knew I was not allowed to criticize the officials from the table.

As usual it was not one thing that lead to the "T". I officiated this team about 2 or 3 weeks ago at their home. they have 3 coaches. As I was passing by the bench ( the far end away from the head coach ) Someone yelled at me about missing a call. As I passed the coach, I told her ( yes HER ) that someone was yelling at me from the end of the bench and she said, "Oh yeah, that's my assistant coach" I told her that I wasn't going to listen to anyone but her. She and her "other assistant" sitting next to her, yelled constantly during the game, I was trying not to "T" them up and succeeded.

So we come to yesterday's game, before the game started, I asked "who is the head coach?" The guy says. " You're looking at him" I say, then I don't want to hear anything from anyone but you. In the first quarter, the "assistant" coach is standing and coaching. I go to the bench and tell them that only the head coach can stand during the game, and "she" tells me that they are "co-coaches" I say, no HE is the head coach and only "HE" can stand. So they say, you mean only one of us can stand at a time.....I clarify. they behaved after that, until the problem with the table.

Thanks for your feed back.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

I understand your point. My point was that the coach did appoint him as the score keeper and therefore, yes a part of his crew.

No, sorry but that's not the way it works. He's part of your crew.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

My point was that the coach did appoint him as the score keeper and therefore, yes a part of his crew.

Your point is completely wrong, rules-wise,

[OHBBREF]

All personell at the table invloved in the scoring of the game are considered part of the officials crew. Now you could make the argument thatthe non official book is not partof that crew, but I personally would be stretching it.

I usually do not remove them the first time, in any game at any level.
I usually go over to the table at a dead ball and explain to them that they are part of my crew, and therefore have no opinion as to what happens on the floor, and if they want to express an opinion as fan there are the stands and if they want to be part of the team there is the bench. but if they persist on doing this at the table - the door is over there and that will be their next destination if I have to deal with this again.

works out almost every time. once in a while you get some one who wants to move, and by doing so there is a big target on their their back no mater where they go. the administrator has them as fan and the coach has them if they go to the bench.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

I understand your point. My point was that the coach did appoint him as the score keeper and therefore, yes a part of his crew.

I used to coach ( assistant ) and many times I had to do the books because we did not have a scorekeeper show up. I knew I was not allowed to coach from the table and I knew I was not allowed to criticize the officials from the table.

Nor is a coach allowed to criticize the officials from the bench area.

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

As usual it was not one thing that lead to the "T". I officiated this team about 2 or 3 weeks ago at their home. they have 3 coaches. As I was passing by the bench ( the far end away from the head coach ) Someone yelled at me about missing a call. As I passed the coach, I told her ( yes HER ) that someone was yelling at me from the end of the bench and she said, "Oh yeah, that's my assistant coach" I told her that I wasn't going to listen to anyone but her.

Why would you make such a statement? There is no rule prohibiting an assistant coach from speaking with an official. You should answer polite questions from any coach. By the same token, you shouldn't allow yelling at a game official from any coach either.

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

She and her "other assistant" sitting next to her, yelled constantly during the game, I was trying not to "T" them up and succeeded.

Why are you actively trying not to charge a T to someone who clearly deserves one? That kind of thinking is insane. Either tell them to knock it off or assess the well-earned technical foul. The only thing that you succeeded in doing was sending the message to the them that it was okay to constantly yell at you. Don't make that mistake again.

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

So we come to yesterday's game, before the game started, I asked "who is the head coach?" The guy says. " You're looking at him" I say, then I don't want to hear anything from anyone but you. In the first quarter, the "assistant" coach is standing and coaching. I go to the bench and tell them that only the head coach can stand during the game, and "she" tells me that they are "co-coaches" I say, no HE is the head coach and only "HE" can stand. So they say, you mean only one of us can stand at a time.....I clarify. they behaved after that, until the problem with the table.

Thanks for your feed back.

Nicely done. (except for the part in red) See how well it works when you follow the proper protocol and don't mess around?

[Terrapins Fan]

Why would you make such a statement? There is no rule prohibiting an assistant coach from speaking with an official. You should answer polite questions from any coach. By the same token, you shouldn't allow yelling at a game official from any coach either.

We are told from day one, we deal with the head coach only. Assistant coaches are not allowed to speak to us.

Now if they ask a question during a time out or intermission, that's acceptable, not during the game.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

We are told from day one, we deal with the head coach only. Assistant coaches are not allowed to speak to us.

Now if they ask a question during a time out or intermission, that's acceptable, not during the game.

Okay, you have to do what you are told by the higher-ups and what is expected of you in your area, but I guess that I would have to ask why are your instructors telling you to do it that way?

I know that wasn't the case when I officiated in MD. I was never instructed to not speak with an assistant coach.

[Terrapins Fan]

They tell us it just leads to trouble. Until the last couple of years ( 2 or 3 ) we we're to talk to the head coach either.

We communicated with the speaking captain only.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

No misprint. I "T"ed up the score keeper for the visitors today. He's the guy keeping the book at the table.

I report the foul "12 black Illegal use of the hands", and when I do, the coach yells ( and BTW, he is winning at the time by 10 points ) "She wasn't any where near the play" The book keeper yells " She wasn't any where near the play." Bang. T Because I am not going to have the score keeper yelling at me during the game.

We also sat the coach for the rest of the game. I have never "T"ed at score keeper, but I figure he is part of the coaches staff and therefore, coach gets to ride the bench for the rest of the game. Right?

BTW, 12 black was where I said she was and she did foul the player and it was only her 1st foul....3rd quarter for your processing info.

Terps Fan,
Was that the first comment that the visiting scorekeeper made to you during the game? While everyone is focusing on the bench personnel vs. scorekeeper discussion, if that was the first thing you heard from that scorer, I would perhaps have opted for a warning before removal.

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

I understand your point. My point was that the coach did appoint him as the score keeper and therefore, yes a part of his crew.

I used to coach ( assistant ) and many times I had to do the books because we did not have a scorekeeper show up. I knew I was not allowed to coach from the table and I knew I was not allowed to criticize the officials from the table.

As usual it was not one thing that lead to the "T". I officiated this team about 2 or 3 weeks ago at their home. they have 3 coaches. As I was passing by the bench ( the far end away from the head coach ) Someone yelled at me about missing a call. As I passed the coach, I told her ( yes HER ) that someone was yelling at me from the end of the bench and she said, "Oh yeah, that's my assistant coach" I told her that I wasn't going to listen to anyone but her. She and her "other assistant" sitting next to her, yelled constantly during the game, I was trying not to "T" them up and succeeded.

So we come to yesterday's game, before the game started, I asked "who is the head coach?" The guy says. " You're looking at him" I say, then I don't want to hear anything from anyone but you. In the first quarter, the "assistant" coach is standing and coaching. I go to the bench and tell them that only the head coach can stand during the game, and "she" tells me that they are "co-coaches" I say, no HE is the head coach and only "HE" can stand. So they say, you mean only one of us can stand at a time.....I clarify. they behaved after that, until the problem with the table.

Thanks for your feed back.

While it is hard to do at times, it is important to start each and every game from scratch (i.e. do not walk onto the floor with an attitude concerning what was said in the last game). To do anything else is unfair. Perhaps the coaches on the other team are worse -- you just haven't had them before.

[Terrapins Fan]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

Terps Fan,
Was that the first comment that the visiting scorekeeper made to you during the game? While everyone is focusing on the bench personnel vs. scorekeeper discussion, if that was the first thing you heard from that scorer, I would perhaps have opted for a warning before removal.



While it is hard to do at times, it is important to start each and every game from scratch (i.e. do not walk onto the floor with an attitude concerning what was said in the last game). To do anything else is unfair. Perhaps the coaches on the other team are worse -- you just haven't had them before.

Yes, that was the first remark he had made to me. But he yelled it at the top of his lungs. You can't have people yelling at you from the table when you are trying to report a foul.

2nd, I had experience with this team and this coach and it wasn't a good experience. I had 2 assistant coaches yelling at me during the last game that I refereed for them. I took that into the game with me and decided that I was going to eliminate that problem and I did.

My job is to referee, their job is to coach, not yell at me while I am trying to do my job.

Understand that I have been blessed to do mostly varsity games this year and we don't get as much of the yelling there, neither from the fans nor the coaches. At the 7th and 8th grade level you are getting a lot of parents coaching. Not to many stay too long. So, there is the inexperience factor.

But yes, I brought the experiences that I had with this team into this game and I tried to avoid the problems that I had with them in the past. I don't see how that is wrong. I didn't hold any grudge, just trying to avoid the problems.

I don't care who wins a game, I am just there to do a job.

[doubleringer]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

2nd, I had experience with this team and this coach and it wasn't a good experience. I had 2 assistant coaches yelling at me during the last game that I refereed for them. I took that into the game with me and decided that I was going to eliminate that problem and I did.

Every game is a fresh start. When you walk into a game with this on you're mind, you are in a very similar mindset to a coach that thinks, "Oh, we had this guy last week and he screwed us on a bunch of calls."

We will not let coaches bring up things that happened in previous games, so we also need to go in with a "clean slate". This is extremely difficult to do at the lower levels when officials often see the same teams multiple times and even worse at the weekend tourney level where you are on a floor all day, but it is a mindset that can get you in looking for trouble when there isn't any.

[Adam]

At the same time, there's no reason not to be able to anticipate problems.

As I said before, it's no different than knowing a team has a tendency to steal the tip or back out too early on a free throw.

If you know a coach is a chronic PITA, deal with it early.