Up 45 and still pressing

[mikec]

Wow:

You are defensive. I never said anything about illegal.

I said no breaks and if something is close they are probably not going to get it.

I don't break any rules and would not condone that. Why are you so concerned about the players. The integrety of the games i more important. In fact those players need to understnad that pressing an outmanned opponent into humiliation is not correct. Fogive me for being old-fashioned.

[mick]

Originally posted by mikec
Wow:

You are defensive. I never said anything about illegal.

I said no breaks and if something is close they are probably not going to get it.

I don't break any rules and would not condone that. Why are you so concerned about the players. The integrety of the games i more important. In fact those players need to understnad that pressing an outmanned opponent into humiliation is not correct. Fogive me for being old-fashioned.

mikec,
Padgett wasn't being defensive.
He merely said he was gonna follow the rules.

It is outside the rules to bend the rules to the advantage, or disadvantage, of one team or another.

( But I gotta say, Mark Padgett started it.)
mick

[rockyroad]

MikeC - could you explain how changing the way you call the game- in the middle of the game-supports the integrity of the game?? I am confused by your statement about the integrity of the game...if a team is behind by 40 points, you are saying that you will change your calls, and then say that enhances the integrity of the game...I am seriously confused by those two statements...

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by mikec
Wow:

...Why are you so concerned about the players. The integrety of the games i more important. In fact those players need to understnad that pressing an outmanned opponent into humiliation is not correct. Fogive me for being old-fashioned.

Sadly, sometimes sports involves getting humiliated. It
happens. BTW, I'm reminded of a cute saying: "I love
humanity, it's just the people I can't stand!"

[zebraman]

This "pouring it on" really does make it difficult for everyone. The losing team gets frustrated and so do the coaches. The losing parents are frustrated too because they don't like to see their prince or princess being humiliated. It is very tempting to start calling "breath fouls" against the pressing team and I certainly would not think less of a ref who did that, especially at younger levels.

That being said, my personal policy is to just keep calling the game as unbiased as I can. I hustle my rear off to try to be in perfect position in case there is a foul. I don't want to make the frustration worse by letting the frustrated team get fouled without a whistle. Remember that the winning team often has their second team in as well and it isn't fair to punish those kids with "breath fouls" when it may be their only chance to play.

I have found that these things eventually take care of themselves. The losing coach and/or the losing parents are generally upset enough that they follow-up on it and complain. Any league administrator with a clue will do something to prevent it from happening again. If not, don't accept assignments in that league anymore. Around here, all the summer leagues that I ref below the varsity level have a "no press" rule once team is up by 15 or more. At the the Varsity level, it isn't a problem because the coaches know each other and have enough respect to not do it.

Z

[Todd Springer]

You ask if I am going to favor the team that is behind. I am not. However, I think this falls under game management. I would never suggest that we should ever compromise our integrity. I think that common sense has to be used. Once again I would say,"Do what is best for the game."

[mikec]

Please read what I said. Would I bleantaly change the game? No. Subtle changes and the smart coach gets the hint right away. Obviously, not all coaches are smart. If a team is up 40 they are up 40. If they are pressing an outmanned team and up 40 that is something all together different. That has no place in the game.

By the way that getting humilated in a game because someone is pressing an outmanned team is not right.

Do I have some comapssion? Darn right.

[rockyroad]

Ok...you still haven't answered the question...if a team is up by 40 and still pressing an out-manned team, and the coach is not smart enough to catch your "subtle" hints - are you going to change the way you call the game? And if you do, how does that help the integrity of the game, and your personal integrity as an official?

[Oz Referee]

Up until now, I have managed to keep this a secret - but now the cat is our of the bag - I am a coach as well as a referee (Padge - please don't puke on my shoes )

I have been in this situation as a coach - telling my players to press against a team that we were beating by about 50 points. The referee did exaclty what some here are suggesting - and clamped down on our play, calling fouls on our team, while similar contact by the other team went un-punished.

So what, you say? Well the other team ended up catching up (a little) and we only won by 32 points. Unfortunately we needed to win by 46 or more to ensure our place in the finals (we finished equal 4th on the table - so it comes down to points for/against).

In this case, the referees did not affect the outcome of the game, nor did they teach me (the coach) a lesson. They did however, punish my players, and effectively knocked us out of the post season.

The moral to this story - a foul in the last 10 seconds in the game, is a foul in the first 10 seconds of the game - regardless of how the game is going. Calling a game consistently is the one thing that referees MUST do.

[rockyroad]

Preach it, Oz!! Preach it!!

[Mark Padgett]

I must admit that in rereading my reply to mikec, I came across somewhat more confrontational in tone than I usually do. I must have been in a bad mood and I apologize. I think I posted right after I sat on that Pez dispenser.

However, I still maintain that not calling the game consistently from start to finish regardless of the score is the fairest way to treat the players, and is the proper definition of protecting the integrity of the game.

The players deserve a fair shake from the officials, even if they don't get what they perceive to be a fair shake from their opponent. I'm not going to penalize players because their coach is a jerk. Wouldn't it be nice if technicals against a coach didn't affect the score of the game, but perhaps their bank account instead.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by mikec
Please read what I said. Would I bleantaly change the game? No. Subtle changes and the smart coach gets the hint right away. Obviously, not all coaches are smart. If a team is up 40 they are up 40. If they are pressing an outmanned team and up 40 that is something all together different. That has no place in the game.

By the way that getting humilated in a game because someone is pressing an outmanned team is not right.

Do I have some comapssion? Darn right.

Well, I'm not Rocky but I must ask: when does your
compassion kick in? 20 pts? 40 pts? Is there a point when
you'll decide that it's time to toss compassion out the
window? When they whittle it down to 15 pts? 10 pts? To
me integrity means you call it the same from start to end,
period. All players are equal going in. Just 'cause one
side is up by 30 pts doesn't mean they have to play by a new
set of "subtle" rules.

[mikec]

Let me clarify. I am referring mainly to high school summer leagues. If a team is blowing someone out and playing half-court defense good for them. Thats why I work games that have a press rule now.


Again, from my point of view summer is a time for me to work on my game, and for kids to play, have some fun and work on their individual skills.

Danref: It does not take a blind man to see when a girls team is 45 points ahead on on their way to a 101 to 9 win that it is enough. Would I give the team getting beaten like that a few breaks. Yes. Am I going to call traveling on the 5-1, 155 pound 12th player on that team when she makes a layup with a few minutes to go. So she took an extra step. It's a rule though and so lets keep the score 101 to 7.
For that coach who had to win by 46 or more points. Where was that and who thought of the idea of using points as a tie-breaker. To have to keep pressing and running up the score has no place in sport.

I coached for years also and never ran up a score, although I had it done to me. Its not fun and has no place in high school sport. High school is not college nor the pros. These are kids.

While I disagree with many of you, I respect your opinions.

[Mark Padgett]

Whenever I get into a discussion of the role of the official, I always remember the words of Ed Hightower: "Be in control of the game without controlling the game." When you start changing your calls based on the score of the game, then you are controlling the game. That's flat out wrong.

It is not our job to level the playing field. Believe it or not, it is our job to make sure the best team wins. I know that sounds odd to some of you, but think of it this way - if you call the game consistently from beginning to end, if you apply advantage/disadvantage properly, if you call the game according to the rules and if you make the calls the same way for both teams - then the best team will win. And guess what? They're supposed to win. That's their reward for playing the best. And, if we do our job properly, that's what will happen.

[Oz Referee]

Mikec,


What other tie-breaker options are available?
In the competition I was talking about my team (Manly-Warringah) and one other team (Sydney City) were tied with the same win/loss record - and we played each other twice and recorded one win each. So it came down to the overall points for/against to determine which team would place higher - so we had to make sure that we beat the team that we were playing by more than a pre-determined number of points.

Have a look at the World Cup - it uses the same scheme.

You say that you change the way that you call the game because you are compassionate - what about compassion for the poor kid that can't dribble and so get's double teamed everytime he gets the ball - do you change the way you referee him compared to the other players on the court?

And as far as your comment that the players are playing to improve their skills and have fun - have you ever played? Even from a young age all the guys I played with, played to win - whether it was a formal competition or pick-up.

And my overall point is this - it is the referees job to enforce the rules of basketball, not make judgements on how the game should be played. Until there is a rule that says pressing when leading by more than 'x' number of points is illegal, then any referee that changes the way that they run the game is cheating.