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-   -   player control? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/51205-player-control.html)

Ref Ump Welsch Tue Jan 27, 2009 09:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKOFL (Post 572774)
To have player control, one of the criteria is to be "holding" the ball. It does not say with the hands. Question? Can you "hold" the ball with your leggs?

Wow, did they play with pantyhose back in the days of the skirts for women's basketball??? :p

ma_ref Tue Jan 27, 2009 09:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdw3018 (Post 572511)
I've stated my opinion - a player intentionally holding the ball between his/her legs has struck the ball.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but how about this situation:

It is illegal to strike the ball with a closed fist. Player holds the ball in front of him/her between two closed fists. Violation?

I say no, but if you're saying that holding the ball between the legs is the same as striking the ball ("a light strike") then my scenario is no different...

JugglingReferee Tue Jan 27, 2009 09:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ma_ref (Post 572853)
I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but how about this situation:

It is illegal to strike the ball with a closed fist. Player holds the ball in front of him/her between two closed fists. Violation?

I say no, but if you're saying that holding the ball between the legs is the same as striking the ball ("a light strike") then my scenario is no different...

No violation from me!

OHBBREF Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKOFL (Post 572774)
To have player control, one of the criteria is to be "holding" the ball. It does not say with the hands. Question? Can you "hold" the ball with your leggs?

Yes you can - however it is a violation

Quote:

Originally Posted by ma_ref (Post 572853)
It is illegal to strike the ball with a closed fist. Player holds the ball in front of him/her between two closed fists. Violation?

No there is no advantage gained.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OHBBREF (Post 572528)
NCAA Case Play
RULING: ... The intent of this rule is to prevent a player from gaining an advantage by using any part of the leg.

once you read the intent of the rule, it is clear how to enforce the rule.
If a player gains an advantage by using the legs to Hold/Control/Deflect/etc. is the use of the legs a violation.

mbyron Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by OHBBREF (Post 572867)
once you read the intent of the rule, it is clear how to enforce the rule.
If a player gains an advantage by using the legs to Hold/Control/Deflect/etc. is the use of the legs a violation.

Please explain how to read the intent of the rule. Where is that written, exactly?

You're importing an NCAA ruling into NFHS. You think that's legitimate, and I don't.

OHBBREF Tue Jan 27, 2009 01:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 572895)
You're importing an NCAA ruling into NFHS. You think that's legitimate, and I don't.

Since the rules are the same it could be deduced that the intent is the same.

mbyron Tue Jan 27, 2009 02:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OHBBREF (Post 572934)
Since the rules are the same it could be deduced that the intent is the same.

That's fallacious. The case plays and approved rulings provide insight into intent of the rules.

Yes, the rules are the same. But the rulings are different (NCAA has one, NFHS does not). Therefore, the intent seems to be different.

deecee Tue Jan 27, 2009 02:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 572952)
That's fallacious. The case plays and approved rulings provide insight into intent of the rules.

Yes, the rules are the same. But the rulings are different (NCAA has one, NFHS does not). Therefore, the intent seems to be different.

Is that your opinion or fact?

mbyron Tue Jan 27, 2009 02:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 572955)
Is that your opinion or fact?

It's elementary, dear Watson. The premises are all facts.

OHBBREF Tue Jan 27, 2009 02:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 572952)
Yes, the rules are the same. But the rulings are different (NCAA has one, NFHS does not). Therefore, the intent seems to be different.

So because the NFHS doesn't have a ruling on this play, the intent of the rule is different?

We officiate almost all rules at both levels from the very point the NCAA makes about this rule in the case play, advantage/disadvantage. The purpose of most of the rules regarding fouls and violations that govern the game are so that no player gains an advantage over another through a specified action.
So where would this interpretation deviate from that intent?
and If I am so wrong show me then;
What then is the intent of the NFHS rule?

AKOFL Tue Jan 27, 2009 02:25pm

The kick violation is so there is no advantage gained by the defence, or offence, by using his legs to block the ball or kick it away from someone to get it for themselves. I would call a violation if someone used thier legs to get a ball or corral it back to themselves. But just ending up with it between the legs and holding it there seems different to me. Thoughts?
You are allowed to accidentally "strike" the ball with leg or foot without a violaton being called.

M&M Guy Tue Jan 27, 2009 03:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKOFL (Post 572966)
You are allowed to <font color=blue>accidentally</font color><font color=red> "strike"</font color> the ball with leg or foot without a violaton being called.

Aren't these mutual exclusive actions? How can you accidentally hit something on purpose?

I believe most of us understand the difference between "the leg hitting the ball", and "the ball hitting the leg". Iow, the word "strike" is used to show intent, not necessarily the amount of force used. How many of us would NOT call a violation when a player sticks their leg out to block the pass, but the ball only grazes the leg? That's certainly not a "strike" in the general meaning of that word, but it would still qualify as a violation because we all understand it is based on the intent of the player, not the total amount of force.

So, if a player is "holding" the ball between their legs, it will be a violation in my game.

If a woman squeezes her legs around me, will I call it a "strike"? Depends on how bad I've been that day. :D

mbyron Tue Jan 27, 2009 03:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by OHBBREF (Post 572961)
So because the NFHS doesn't have a ruling on this play, the intent of the rule is different?

Exactly! If NFHS wanted to adopt the same ruling, it would be in the case book, right? So they must mean something else by the rule.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OHBBREF (Post 572961)
So where would this interpretation deviate from that intent?
and If I am so wrong show me then;
What then is the intent of the NFHS rule?

I read the intention right out of the rule: if the leg intentionally strikes the ball, then it's a kick. Holding the ball between the legs does not meet that definition.

M&M Guy Tue Jan 27, 2009 03:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 572985)
I read the intention right out of the rule: if the leg intentionally strikes the ball, then it's a kick. Holding the ball between the legs does not meet that definition.

Is there a threshold of contact, where above which would be considered a "strike", and below that would not be considered a strike? And when a player intentionally sticks their leg out, if you make a judgement that the contact doesn't rise to the level of "strike", do you say there was no violation?

deecee Tue Jan 27, 2009 04:24pm

I disagree here -- the FED has screwed up before and overlooked things in the past. In some cases they might not feel the need to spell everything out beacuse they might feel it unnecessary. I do think this is one of those scenarios.

If the FED were to rule opposite of the NCAA it would only be because they read my post and they want to prove me wrong. :)


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