First Time Ever - T to start game
 

Happened in a JV boys game last night -

As my partner and I go over to meet and greet the visiting coach, he is at the table and his scorer is erasing something in the book. We ask what he is doing, and he explains that he is changing his starters. We tell him that if he does that, it is a technical foul as is is way past the 10 minute mark. He responds with "Then just give us the technical because there's no way these guys are starting". He then asks if it is charged to him or just to the team and we tell him it is only a team foul and he still has use of his box.

We inform the home coach we are starting the game with a technical foul and then the visiting varsity coach comes over to tell us that its not right to start the game that way - That it had happened before this season and the officials let it go. We don't buy into his story and tell him two wrongs don't make a right.

So instead of a jump ball at center court, we award two free throws to the home team, give them the ball for a throw-in, set the arrow to the visitors, and continue the game.

Its one of those things you read about, but in all these years it is the first time I have seen or had it actually happen. You can only imagine how perplexed the spectators were, trying to figure out what was going on. I think all of us missed the anticipation of the jump ball going up!

How many of you have actually started with a technical for anything other than dunking in warm-ups?

Had it last night also. Didn't have starters in the book, and no one out on the court warming up - they went to their locker room before we came out and weren't back before we left at 10:00. No biggie - they messed up. This was in an NCAA game, so we shot the two shots and then still got to toss it up.:p

I've had it happen. Coach gave the wrong jersey numbers to the scorer. Had to change the whole roster when the team came out for the jump. Oh well.

I wish you were the official at a game I was at a few years back. NCAA-W. Visiting team leaves the floor at ~12 minutes to go and visiting coach never gives her starting 5. Team returns to the floor with 5 mins to go and she finally gives tsarters and tells the table it's their job to go get her in the locker room if she hasn't given them starters. :confused: She got no T. :mad:

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When I was in college, we got a T to start the game because in the previous game, we had a player not play for whaetever reason, and I had copied our lineup from the sheet without him. and given that to the home scorer. One of my firends played for the opponent and he still teases me about that. :P

Yes, I had a game in which a starter was wearing 00, but was listed as 0.

I wrote a thread about it on here and it generated quite a response.

http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=18053

I have started atleast a game a year with FT's, Once for dunking.

We as officials just have to treat T's as just another foul, it is no big deal, especially to start a game. If more officials would give a T when it is warranted instead of talking or warning until certain activities would soon cease to occur.

And you are still wrong. :D

There are three kinds of mathematicians in the world: Those that can count and those that can't.

--Rich (BS, Mathematics)

His response would lead me to a follow-up question: did he provide a correct roster to the scorekeeper, who misidentified the starters when entering the players in the book?

If so, then the T would not have been correct.

Nope!

I had one game in which I ejected both head coaches before the game began for looking at me cross-eyed. The assistant coaches were also tossed just because I felt like it, so we couldn't play the game. There was a really good show on TV that night and my DVR was already full. :cool:

BTW - I once started with a technical for pre-game dunking in a 3rd grade girls game. And if you believe that, you're probably betting on the Lions to win the Super Bowl. :p

Also, can you tell I lost my meds? :o

Are you sure this is how you want to handle a JV game? I am a by the book kind of guy but this seems excessive to me. Especially if the coach wants to change starters to send a message to his team.

Varsity game I am all over this and access the T. Sub-varsity I am asking coach what's up?

In my part of the world sub-varsity is about getting kids on the court. Often there are different uniforms, possibly 2 number 5's etc. As long as the coach explains what is happening there should be a little slack.

I am not saying that I would pass on playing rules, etc but fashion police can take a back seat for common sense.

Besides what advantage did the coach gain?

[QUOTE=ranjo;569925]Happened in a JV boys game last night -

JV game I'm not starting with the T. Let them fix it quickly and let it go. V game, nail him, but that's just me.

In Ranjo's world JV basketball is very well organized and they are expected to follow the same rules as varsity. The VHSL does however allow an exception for the "home team must wear white" rule.

And when a coach changes his starters after the 10 minute mark we are now suppose to let it go if he is doing it to "send his team a message"?

What is the intent of the rule?

I think it to stop coaches from making changes on starters up to the start of the game. A coach would be looking to find the best match ups. The rule also eliminates confusion at the table to start the game.

Again it maybe different parts of the country but here there is a big difference between varsity and sub-varsity.

[QUOTE=refnrev;570090]I try to treat JV games just like I do V games. Below that, I make a few exceptions. 99% of JV games are right before the V game, with V coaches on the bench and some players who will be participatiing in both games. I do not want to send mixed messages.

I also believe that intentionally not applying rules is a great way to forget how to apply those rules.

How do you report a pre-start T. Let's say a player dunks five minutes before the start or a coach makes a change to the book within ten minutes, how do you make the call?

Do you just verbalize it to the table and then to the coaches individually, or do you actually signal the T somewhere, like in front of the table or do you do so from the foul reporting area. Do you call the T right when the violation happens, or wait until the pre-game clock runs down to zero and then call it?

You use the proper mechanic which is to take the stuffed dummy of the coach and brand a "T" on its forehead. You then string the dummy up by throwing a rope over the rear support behind that team's basket. Then report it to the table in pig-latin.

Then you try to find your meds. :o

[QUOTE=refnrev;570090]
The coach was given an opportunity to fix it, but he chose the technical over changing the starters back to the ones originally checked off in the book.

Just to add a note, a few of our AAA JV boys teams are playing above the rim. When you throw it up, be prepared to run hard for 32 minutes. I would never turn back one of the JV boys games in our area.

You play 8 minute quarters for JV? :eek:

I had a kid hang on the rim in pre-game Saturday night. I escorted him to his coach and made him explain why we would be starting with a T. Then, I (we) made sure the books had it right and knew when and how to set the arrow, etc., and told the opposing coach that his team would start with FTs.

The announcer announced, "We're starting the game with FTs due to a technical foul on xxxx team during the pre-game."

On we went.

Some of the bigger schools around here do, and especially during tournaments.

Coaching we've had two situations like this already this season, both handled differently. (btw, NJCAA-W game)

First game, official scorebook wasn't even at the table until 5 minutes before tip-off. Officials gave them (the home team) an Administrative technical foul for not having a book. Our best FT shooter wasn't starting that day, but was able to shoot the 2, and then go back to the bench. However, they still had a jump ball to start the game. Wasn't sure if you set the arrow or jump in NCAA rules, but it wasn't a big deal since we got to start the game up 2-0 :D

Second game happened this weekend. The home team put 7 players in their book, and ended up playing 9. When we saw they were using a new player, we notified the officials and they said it was no big deal. Our HC got so upset he started going off. Luckily the officials did not T him up for his demonstration.

(BTW, these guys also waved off 5 three pointers because the 20'9" line is the "College" line and the 19'9" is the "High School" line.) :mad::rolleyes:

I am with Blue, below varsity, almost anything goes with all of the pregame house keeping rules. I am happy if we have a scorekeeper and clock operator that knows what they are doing and not texting.

All of them around here do.

Not just 8 minutes for JV but also for Freshmen in SoCal.

JV boys & JV girls.

How it is here too.

What do you play around there?

Here in SC, it's 6-minute for everything but varsity. I actually miss that about Kansas, where all HS games were 8-minute, and MS were 6-minute. Six-minute games just seem so, well, short...

Team Technical, Or Player Technical ???
 

I think it's a player technical foul, not a team technical foul?

NFHS Rule 10 Section 3 Player Technical: A player shall not:
ART. 3 Grasp either basket during the time of the officials’ jurisdiction, dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball prior to or during the game or during any intermission until jurisdiction of the officials has ended. This item applies to all team members.

Indiana, 8 minutes Varsity, everything else 6 minutes.

Why do you believe that the VHSL needs to make an exception for the non-white jerseys at the JV level?

Read this:
http://forum.officiating.com/showpos...4&postcount=47

The same is true in NV.

The reason given is that the JV teams usually get the hand-me-down uniforms from the varsity teams, so some leaway is given until the next cycle of new uniforms are ordered for the varsity.

I understand that. However, you are missing my point. Does the state of VA or the VHSL as a league have their own rule that sub-varsity programs must wear white at home? Where is the rule coming from that needs an exception? It isn't the NFHS.

I was at an NCAA game that started with a T because the division line and center circle were obscured with the team's logo. It was the first year the rule about clearly marking the lines was in the book. The school fixed it by the next game.

8 minutes around here, too.
And while I might give them an extra minute or so, if he changes starters right before tip, that's an easy call.

Of course it is. That is how it was enforced.

2005-05 RULE CHANGES
3-4-6 Note Beginning in 2007-08, the home team will be required to wear white jerseys and the visiting team dark jerseys.

2007-08 MAJOR EDITORIAL CHANGES
3-4-6b Implementation date reached requiring the home team to wear white jerseys. The note will be removed and a new sub-article will be added stating this requirement.

The NFHS rule book lists some exceptions for sub-varsity (i.e 5-5-1 & 5-5-3), however, uniforms are not one of them, and we are expected to enforce the same NFHS rules at both JV and Varsity levels unless the VHSL issues a directive otherwise.

Does this answer your question?

8 minutes: varsity

7 minutes: JV & frosh

6 minutes: MS