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Quote:

Originally Posted by TrojanHorse (Post 569874)

Coaching at a 8th grade boys tournament this past weekend, My team and I were early and watched the game before us. Two rivals that usually results in a well played game. What was disturbing though was the actions of several players on on team.

During the 2nd qtr. Home team drives to the basket and two players from the visiting team collapse on him. A foul is called, and the player who has the foul called on him walks through the paint, throws his hands on his head and says in a loud talking voice, "unbelievable" He does this several times. I was expecting a T, but it never came..an official said something to him while shooting free throws.

Game progresses, kid picks up his third and again shows visible disgust. Nothing said

Late 4th quarter, not sure if he fouls out or what, but again shows visible disgust...he comes out..and he he proceeds to strike the bench at least 5-6 times. About 10 seconds later, his teammate comes out and he does the same thing. The coach says nothing, but sadly neither do the officials.

To make matters worse, after the game is over, the officials watch the post game handshake(not required, but no place really to go) and the same player talked about goes up to the officials and tells them to google reffering.

Just wondering what you all would say about this.

In my humble opinion no player on the floor should be making comments or doing actions that are unsporting or inappropriate, especially challenging an official. When I hear or see inappropriate remarks/behavior I say “No more. Next time it’s a technical.” If it is worthy of a foul, I T him/her up. If it is cussing; no warning.

I feel I need to be a teacher on the court, particularly with grade school players. I have warned players not to stomp their feet or chant while the opponent is at the free throw line or explained certain calls during the game, e.g. not knowing what a 1&1foul shot is.
During a dead ball after a foul, or held ball, I have called both teams together to discuss rough play under the boards. I usually say it loud enough for coaches and bench players to hear. I do this not to show boat but to make my point loud and clear.

My point is game management is part of our job, but we can also be teachers when it is apparent the coach is not managing the players. After a grade school game last week a parent from the losing team came to me and shook my hand. She thanked my partner and me for explaining to the players the rules on some of the calls we made. That was nice and appreciated!

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef (Post 570005)

You are right concerning coach, parent and player bias, but when a new official is just getting started, they are going to make many more mistakes than when they are experienced. Therefore, I suggest that the newest officials are better off trying to block out the criticism than giving technical fouls every time they turn around.

You are right, we do not know exactly how the officials were attempting to address the conduct of the player discussed. From the author's view, it appears as though some of the player's actions were inappropriate. It appears as though the coach (keep in mind, I am NOT necessarily blaming the OFFICIALS here, but I am blaming the COACH based on what was written here) could have helped this young player develop and missed the opportunity.

One of the great aspects of life that sports teaches us is how to handle adversity. An unfair manager at work, a biased professor in school, an inaccurate accusation by a customer, an illness in the family (perhaps our own), the death of a friend/relative, etc. put us in a position in which we must learn to deal with the situation in a rational manner.

It seems as though this player was put in a position to have to deal with adversity. The coach appeared to have had an opportunity to help this youngster grow and chose to allow the player to act out his frustrations without the teaching element being introduced. Once again, we do not know what the coach said in the locker room after the game, but the coach gave the appearance of missing a teaching moment.

Coach, all I am saying this is not a moral issue. And whether a T was going to be given is not going to change the course of these kids’s history. I think we forget that this is a game, just a game. Officiating is like anything in life, when you start out doing something, you do not know what you are doing. You do not know what is acceptable other than what you bring to the table first. I have no doubt that the actions were unsportsmanlike, but that does not mean the people working the game were overwhelmed and probably a little scared. I just get tired of how we beat down officials at that level as if they were in the NBA. I work with a lot of younger officials and you would be surprised what they do not know and the mistakes they make. It might seem simple to us that have worked for years, but the things we take for granted, officials at that level are still green on and do not know unless we make an effort to tell them.

Peace

I am willing to bet this isn't the first time this player acted this way. Too often tournament officials don't call the T because they don't want to deal with the results of calling it. It is EASIER to pass on the T then have to deal with the coach and parent. And then the TD comes and backs the coach, player and parent (because they are the ones paying to be in the tournament). Ref's would be more willing to make the call if supported by the TD's.

What kind of logic is it that you don't want to call a T on a young player? When else do you learn? Also why would you tell young officials not call a T because you are probably wrong with your call? The ref may have been wrong with the first call but I bet they got the T right!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Man In Blue (Post 570095)

A junior high tournament, really? I have not seen the JH Tournament as the hot assignment in most areas. Maybe that is what it is where you live, but I have never seen a JH tournament where the people assigning were not scrambling to get experienced and competent officials.

Peace

In this area there are a group of guys who work 8-10 games per day (times $15). They do a bad job but want as many games as they can get. TD doesn't work hard to get better guys.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Man In Blue (Post 570141)

In this area there are a group of guys who work 8-10 games per day (times $15). They do a bad job but want as many games as they can get. TD doesn't work hard to get better guys.

Fifthteen dollars? I get more for a running clock game during the summer.

And you wonder why you get the same people?

Peace

Around here the jr. high officials and the varsity officials are pretty much the same guys. Newbies do start out in jr. high, but we don't have much of a turnover. Jr. high is mainly Monday and Thursday, while varsity is Tuesday and Friday. The only time the two conflict is for tournaments, which may be on any day of the week. It is not unusual to see two guys call jr. high one night and the same crew call varsity the next night.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Man In Blue (Post 570141)

In this area there are a group of guys who work 8-10 games per day (times $15). They do a bad job but want as many games as they can get. TD doesn't work hard to get better guys.

There are Jr. High School Tournaments and then there are tournaments that have Jr. High School-aged players. In Central Ohio, we have a similar situation to what JAR describes.

The middle school games (at middle school gyms -- regular season or league tournaments) are covered by three different types of officials: 1. Varsity officials -- most of our games are done by varsity officials; 2. Very experienced middle school officials (they may be former varsity officials looking for a slower game, they may have kids in HS and want to work other nights, etc.); 3. Newer Officials (these officials are in the minority). These games are scheduled by registered HS assignors for the most part. The assignors have the referees backs covered.

On the other hand, we do have some facilities who host tournaments for middle school-aged (and other) players. These facililities are for-profit operations. Hence, they will pay about $20 or $22 for a referee. The Directors need the teams to come back and pay the entry fees. Therefore, life for officials can be brutal. Hence, they get new officials (who are just learning) or others who can't work anywhere else.

Is it possible that the tournament described in the OP is one closely resembling my latter case described above?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Man In Blue (Post 570141)

In this area there are a group of guys who work 8-10 games per day (times $15). They do a bad job but want as many games as they can get. TD doesn't work hard to get better guys.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef (Post 570173)

There are Jr. High School Tournaments and then there are tournaments that have Jr. High School-aged players. In Central Ohio, we have a similar situation to what JAR describes.

On the other hand, we do have some facilities who host tournaments for middle school-aged (and other) players. These facililities are for-profit operations. Hence, they will pay about $20 or $22 for a referee. The Directors need the teams to come back and pay the entry fees. Therefore, life for officials can be brutal. Hence, they get new officials (who are just learning) or others who can't work anywhere else.

Is it possible that the tournament described in the OP is one closely resembling my latter case described above?

We have several of those facilities here in SW OH and another one on the way. One of the Hallmarks of the big tournements is that they tend to use more experienced officials and consequently while there are technicals and ejections that occur, when it does - there is rarely an issue, with the tournament operators for several reasons.
One being for the most part if it happened is was more than likely deserved. The other they have discovered over time that they do not want the knuckleheads that cause the problems at their facilities.
By putting quality officiating on the floor the get a better class of teams for the most part, or just better behavior because the word is out that knuckleheads are not tolerated - and therefore the list of teams that want to play in these tournaments usually gets larger every year.

There are still plenty of tournaments for the knuckleheads on both sides to participate in. There are just less of them every year.