Horrible display of sportsmanship
 

Coaching at a 8th grade boys tournament this past weekend, My team and I were early and watched the game before us. Two rivals that usually results in a well played game. What was disturbing though was the actions of several players on on team.

During the 2nd qtr. Home team drives to the basket and two players from the visiting team collapse on him. A foul is called, and the player who has the foul called on him walks through the paint, throws his hands on his head and says in a loud talking voice, "unbelievable" He does this several times. I was expecting a T, but it never came..an official said something to him while shooting free throws.

Game progresses, kid picks up his third and again shows visible disgust. Nothing said

Late 4th quarter, not sure if he fouls out or what, but again shows visible disgust...he comes out..and he he proceeds to strike the bench at least 5-6 times. About 10 seconds later, his teammate comes out and he does the same thing. The coach says nothing, but sadly neither do the officials.

To make matters worse, after the game is over, the officials watch the post game handshake(not required, but no place really to go) and the same player talked about goes up to the officials and tells them to google reffering.

Just wondering what you all would say about this.

I'm only in my 5th year and I'm already done with the Varsity coaches who act the fools.

An 8th grader, please, no brainer-second time he did his Steve Martin act-he's done.

Whats funny is that my kids are up in the stand laughing. Then I could hear them whispering, "coach would run us so much if we did that". Which is good. They already know me, I have told them to knock it off when I hear them say from the bench, "that's a foul".

Add to that, on Saturday, he played. If it were my team he wouldn't have made the trip. To each his own I guess.

Unfortunately, there are far too many officials who ignore this kind of behavior. :(

You will hear all kinds of excuses for this, but it really comes down to not wishing to deal with it.

Sadly, some of those officials post on this forum.

In no way shape or form am I condoning any of the players actions or comments, but deep down you got to admit that is pretty darn funny. :D

"And what's more, those guys can't even spell............wait, I can't either."

Sportsmanship starts with the coach. Glad to see you thought it important enough to teach it to your kids.

And sportsmanship should continue with the parents. If my kid ever pulls anything like that, I'll bench her myself.

Sad to say though, but even at the 5th grade level, I see kids with terrible sportsmanship. One of the teams that we face frequently has a player (coach's daughter) that routinely mouths off to the officials: "Are you kidding?", "No way did I travel!". I rarely see a warning, and never a T.

In this case, it is easy to see where it comes from. Her mother (the coach) keeps up a steady stream of chirping at the officials during the game. In the 3 years that we've played them, she's only been warned to quiet down once.

JRut,
You are correct when identifying the quality of some middle school game basketball officials. If I were doing this game, the player likely would not have gotten to this point. I am more tolerant of behavior than most. At the same time, players don't generally act like this during a middle school game. This type of behavior is usually reserved for the AAU/Ohio Youth Basketball post-season.

It is quite ironic that I am tolerant of this behavior as an official. As a coach, my players were NEVER allowed to say ANYTHING to an official, an opponent, an opposing coach, an opposing parent (or one of our parents) during a game. They were permitted to say "yes sir" or "no sir" in response to an official's question and that was it. No "palms to the heavens", no shaking heads, no smart comments, etc. As soon as they did, they came out of the game.

The only problem I see with what happened here is that next week the officials will likely not be as lenient and forgiving. While I do not like to give a middle school player a technical foul, I will certainly talk to him about his behavior. Generally, the player is only trying to see where the line will be drawn. Once I draw it -- and they sense I am serious about it -- they tend to stop it.

In this case, the player seemed to keep up the behavior after "the referee talked to the player during a free throw." While we do not know what the official said to the player, it is possible that the official did not take the next step after the behavior continued.

I have suggested to many new officials to be more tolerant of complaints when they first start because the complaints are probably accurate. At the same time, when a 14 year old starts showing up an adult official, action needs to be taken.

As a former coach, I would certainly hope that the coach takes the action. If he does not, I quite possibly have already spoken to the coach about the fact that one of his players is close to crossing the line. It appears as though the officials had multiple opportunities to take this step. If the coach takes no action, the technical should come as no surprise. In most cases, the coaches are generally happy to get the warning and take action on their own without the officials having to do anything else.

It appears as though a situation was escalating here and the officials -- experienced or not -- took no action.

This should not be your concern. You cannot be concerned with what people will and will not do before you and after you. It is a losing battle if you try to worry about that. Do what you do and let the chips fall

I do not know about that comment. I do not think a kid complaining is right about a lot of things. They think like fans and claim they do nothing wrong.

That is clear, but that does not mean they simply turned the other cheek. We all have our own idea of how to handle these things and some come from simple trial and error. It should be noted that none of us where there we do not know how egregious the actions were.

Peace

Let's Have a Bi-Lateral Cease Fire Agreement
 

Stop it. Stop it! Stop it!!! :mad:

I don't care who started it, I learn too much from the both of you to risk missing out on the intellegent perspectives you each post from time to time.

Though a newcomer to this board, I hereby call for a truce. You're both to valuable to me to lose either of you over a disagreement like this.

Sing it with me . . . :)

JRut,
First of all, I, as you know, appreciate and frequently agree with your views on game management. While this thread has been hijacked a bit, I would like to respond to these comments.

Keep in mind, I have been a coach for a much longer time than I have been a referee. Hence, I do sometimes think more as a coach than as a referee -- especially when it comes to these situations. Do I really worry about such situations as a referee? No, I personally do not. But, I must admit that when I watch a game that involves an individual such as this, I do casually think about what lies ahead the next week for this youngster if his coach does not provide some guidance.

You are right concerning coach, parent and player bias, but when a new official is just getting started, they are going to make many more mistakes than when they are experienced. Therefore, I suggest that the newest officials are better off trying to block out the criticism than giving technical fouls every time they turn around.

You are right, we do not know exactly how the officials were attempting to address the conduct of the player discussed. From the author's view, it appears as though some of the player's actions were inappropriate. It appears as though the coach (keep in mind, I am NOT necessarily blaming the OFFICIALS here, but I am blaming the COACH based on what was written here) could have helped this young player develop and missed the opportunity.

One of the great aspects of life that sports teaches us is how to handle adversity. An unfair manager at work, a biased professor in school, an inaccurate accusation by a customer, an illness in the family (perhaps our own), the death of a friend/relative, etc. put us in a position in which we must learn to deal with the situation in a rational manner.

It seems as though this player was put in a position to have to deal with adversity. The coach appeared to have had an opportunity to help this youngster grow and chose to allow the player to act out his frustrations without the teaching element being introduced. Once again, we do not know what the coach said in the locker room after the game, but the coach gave the appearance of missing a teaching moment.

When Irish Eyes Are Smiling ...
 

As I've said before, I'm pleased that we're going to have a fine, young, Irish lad in the White House. I can't wait to see a photo of Mr. O'Bama. I'm sure that he'll have red hair, and freckles. Hopefully he'll make Saint Patrick's Day a national holiday. I wonder if his ancestors came from County Monaghan, like my ancestors.

No matter that the officials let the kid off the hook the first time, that can be considered admirable that they tried to manage the situation in a different manner by talking to him... However... what happened to dealing with it times two, three, and four?

"Little Johnny if you do that again you are grounded! Now Johnny don't do that again or likek mommy said you will be grounded next time! Now Johnny I really mean it this time...!

Where does this kid learn respect for the parent teacher coach or official if when told if they do something again there will be consequences and when they do it again nothing happens that time either?

If you tell a player, or coach that something is going to happen if they proceed down the path they are giong - it better happen the next time they do it.


While I agree with this statement as far as what happens after the game - what scares me is that it seems to have entered your thought process as to who you are managing your game on the floor in the immediate time frame.

I am not saying the official was wrong in not giving the inital T, however, the coach did not take advantage of the free ride. So if this player gives me a problem again they will get the T, especially if they were told that their previous behavior is unacceptable.
We can not worry about his lack of a meal, his mom yelling at him, his girl friend leaving him, or his coach being a jerk. There are nine other players on the floor, two head coaches and two benches full of other persons, that take their cue from how we deal with every play on the floor. So if this player is allowed to act the fool all day apparently so is everyone else.
That is not the game I want to have at any level on my floor.
Just my opinion. But you have to take care of the business at hand when required. From the way I read the OP it was required.

Do not misunderstand my post. From a coaching perspective, I am saying that it appears as though a great teaching opportunity was lost.

I am NOT telling you that I would not have given the player a technical foul in this game. These are nearly all HTBT moments, but if I had discussed something with the player AND if Trojan Horse's view of the game is accurate, the player would have gotten a T somewhere along the line if I were one of the officials.

I try not to second guess other officials (on either side) in these situations. We have to maintain control of the game. Did the officials do that in this case? We have one account that says no. The officials (and others) may disagree.

If a player yells "Jesus Christ" in vain during a game, will officials issue a technical foul? Well, in a CYO game, ABSOLUTELY. In a non-CYO, non-Christian league, the official better proceed with caution. Without knowing exactly what happened, it is difficult to judge.

IF the accounts are accurate, an official almost certainly should have issued a T. IF the accounts were accurate, regardless what the officials did or did not do, the coach had some great teaching moments -- at least most of which seem to have been missed.

In my humble opinion no player on the floor should be making comments or doing actions that are unsporting or inappropriate, especially challenging an official. When I hear or see inappropriate remarks/behavior I say “No more. Next time it’s a technical.” If it is worthy of a foul, I T him/her up. If it is cussing; no warning.

I feel I need to be a teacher on the court, particularly with grade school players. I have warned players not to stomp their feet or chant while the opponent is at the free throw line or explained certain calls during the game, e.g. not knowing what a 1&1foul shot is.
During a dead ball after a foul, or held ball, I have called both teams together to discuss rough play under the boards. I usually say it loud enough for coaches and bench players to hear. I do this not to show boat but to make my point loud and clear.

My point is game management is part of our job, but we can also be teachers when it is apparent the coach is not managing the players. After a grade school game last week a parent from the losing team came to me and shook my hand. She thanked my partner and me for explaining to the players the rules on some of the calls we made. That was nice and appreciated!

Coach, all I am saying this is not a moral issue. And whether a T was going to be given is not going to change the course of these kids’s history. I think we forget that this is a game, just a game. Officiating is like anything in life, when you start out doing something, you do not know what you are doing. You do not know what is acceptable other than what you bring to the table first. I have no doubt that the actions were unsportsmanlike, but that does not mean the people working the game were overwhelmed and probably a little scared. I just get tired of how we beat down officials at that level as if they were in the NBA. I work with a lot of younger officials and you would be surprised what they do not know and the mistakes they make. It might seem simple to us that have worked for years, but the things we take for granted, officials at that level are still green on and do not know unless we make an effort to tell them.

Peace

I am willing to bet this isn't the first time this player acted this way. Too often tournament officials don't call the T because they don't want to deal with the results of calling it. It is EASIER to pass on the T then have to deal with the coach and parent. And then the TD comes and backs the coach, player and parent (because they are the ones paying to be in the tournament). Ref's would be more willing to make the call if supported by the TD's.

What kind of logic is it that you don't want to call a T on a young player? When else do you learn? Also why would you tell young officials not call a T because you are probably wrong with your call? The ref may have been wrong with the first call but I bet they got the T right!

A junior high tournament, really? I have not seen the JH Tournament as the hot assignment in most areas. Maybe that is what it is where you live, but I have never seen a JH tournament where the people assigning were not scrambling to get experienced and competent officials.

Peace

In this area there are a group of guys who work 8-10 games per day (times $15). They do a bad job but want as many games as they can get. TD doesn't work hard to get better guys.

Fifthteen dollars? I get more for a running clock game during the summer.

And you wonder why you get the same people?

Peace

Around here the jr. high officials and the varsity officials are pretty much the same guys. Newbies do start out in jr. high, but we don't have much of a turnover. Jr. high is mainly Monday and Thursday, while varsity is Tuesday and Friday. The only time the two conflict is for tournaments, which may be on any day of the week. It is not unusual to see two guys call jr. high one night and the same crew call varsity the next night.

There are Jr. High School Tournaments and then there are tournaments that have Jr. High School-aged players. In Central Ohio, we have a similar situation to what JAR describes.

The middle school games (at middle school gyms -- regular season or league tournaments) are covered by three different types of officials: 1. Varsity officials -- most of our games are done by varsity officials; 2. Very experienced middle school officials (they may be former varsity officials looking for a slower game, they may have kids in HS and want to work other nights, etc.); 3. Newer Officials (these officials are in the minority). These games are scheduled by registered HS assignors for the most part. The assignors have the referees backs covered.

On the other hand, we do have some facilities who host tournaments for middle school-aged (and other) players. These facililities are for-profit operations. Hence, they will pay about $20 or $22 for a referee. The Directors need the teams to come back and pay the entry fees. Therefore, life for officials can be brutal. Hence, they get new officials (who are just learning) or others who can't work anywhere else.

Is it possible that the tournament described in the OP is one closely resembling my latter case described above?

We have several of those facilities here in SW OH and another one on the way. One of the Hallmarks of the big tournements is that they tend to use more experienced officials and consequently while there are technicals and ejections that occur, when it does - there is rarely an issue, with the tournament operators for several reasons.
One being for the most part if it happened is was more than likely deserved. The other they have discovered over time that they do not want the knuckleheads that cause the problems at their facilities.
By putting quality officiating on the floor the get a better class of teams for the most part, or just better behavior because the word is out that knuckleheads are not tolerated - and therefore the list of teams that want to play in these tournaments usually gets larger every year.

There are still plenty of tournaments for the knuckleheads on both sides to participate in. There are just less of them every year.