Camp notes

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by JRutledge


And finally if rules were at the most importance as you think Z, tell me why I have never seen an D1 official in any of the sports I do (Football, Basketball or Baseball) lost or gained assignments based on a test score. College rules are always very different from HS rules. Why would you not have to take a simple qualification test like you do for HS? And BTW, show me any place that requires it other than HS? That also includes Junior High or AAU (rec. league type ball). Why are these officials that do all these other levels not required to have a 80 out of 100 like the NF levels usually have to?

Peace

While they don't have to take a "test", a lack of rules knowledge will cost them. I believe I once heard that the NBA levies a fine for blowing a rule (not judgement). At the upper levels, rules are assumed to be known. If they are not, it will eventualy catch up to the official. You can only carry presence so far.

The best officials have a very high rules knowledge AND good game management...even presence.

At the HS level, a test is a good way to keep those that really don't have a clue from working games. As short supplied as official are reported to be, everyone that can get a lot of the rules right is needed.

[JRutledge]

a rules mistake will cost them. So will a lack of judgement. So will use of improper mechanics or procedures. So will anything else that the NBA or specific conferences on the College level determine as against the conduct or actions of an official.

Please, do not try to make it seem like the only trouble an official can get into is by making a rules mistake. Officials have been fined and suspended for not handling the situation as stated in guildlines set by the NBA or College Conference. I know specifically the NBA and NCAA in many sports will repremand or suspend officials for much more than rules mistakes. The NBA reviews every single call an official makes and grades them on their positioning and the calls they make. So they could nail a rule and be the wrong official making a call or use the improper mechanic and get in trouble. And I know that D1 Football officials and Basketball officials go through the same type of scrutiny. I would be probably sure that other sports go through that same type of evaluation, but lets us get real. Officiating is much more than rules. If rules was the only thing, Ed Rush himself would not have asked me about my competitive background when I asked him "what does it take to become an NBA Official?"

Peace

[zebraman]

I guess it all depends on our experiences. I have never had a partner who put me in a bad spot because of a lack of presence. I guess I have always felt that I could "cover his back" if he seemed a little nervous or unsure. However, I have had partners who put me between a rock and a hard spot with improper rule interpretations. It was about as enjoyable as having teeth pulled without novocaine.

Z

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman
I guess it all depends on our experiences. I have never had a partner who put me in a bad spot because of a lack of presence. I guess I have always felt that I could "cover his back" if he seemed a little nervous or unsure. However, I have had partners who put me between a rock and a hard spot with improper rule interpretations. It was about as enjoyable as having teeth pulled without novocaine.

Z

Well, I have seen officials make many mistakes and often times they are rules mistakes. And you know what, not a coach said a single word. Maybe other officials watching in the stands realized there was a rules mishaps, but the coaches and many times fans were clueless (like that is a surprise ). Let me ask you this, how many times have you made the absolute right call and you caught hell for it by coaches? You have much more to worry about then just missing a rule, you have to sell your calls too.

Peace

[zebraman]

how many times have you made the absolute right call and you caught hell for it by coaches? You have much more to worry about then just missing a rule, you have to sell your
calls too.

Rut,

My number one concern is to get the call right. If a coach "gives me hell" because he does not know the rulebook, he is in the wrong - not me.

Are you implying that it's OK to not be an expert on the rules if you have the ability to "B.S." a coach into thinking you know the rules when you really don't?

Z

[donfowler]

Just returned from a camp full of D1 and NBA evaluators. Discussion started during film session. What is more important - a good play caller or good game management?
Question was later presented to campers, college assigners, and coaches (HS & D1).
While everyone agrees that the plays must be called correctly and rule knowlege is important, nearly 95 percent of the campers felt game management was most important. The assingers and coaches who expressed their opinions felt that officails do their best in play calling and felt that the way a game is managed was more important.
Food for thought.

[zebraman]

Ever try to "manage a game" where several rules have been "kicked?" Doesn't work real good. :-)

Again, I think all the aspects of officiating are important. But given the choice between a partner who has good rule knowledge and good presence, I'll take the rules guy.

Instead of talking theory, let's move to a real life example I had. I'm officiating a varsity game last year with a 15-year vet. I'm lead watching off ball. I hear his whistle and look up to see him signal a travel. Coach is giving him the business. I inbound and we carry on. At quarter break, I ask him what coach was upset about. 15-year vet tells me that he called the travel because the player bent over and touched the ball to the floor while holding it with both hands. I tell him that's a legal play and his response is, "I've been calling it that way for 15 years." Lovely.

OK, now what do we do if it happens again, especially to the other team? Call it as we should or stay "consistent" and call it incorrectly.

This guy "manages a game" pretty good. He has good presence. I don't think he has studied the rule book since his third or fourth year of officiating. I have seen him pull other "myths" out of his *** and it's because his rule knowledge sucks. Give me a less experienced partner with good rule knowledge any day of the week.

Z

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by zebraman
how many times have you made the absolute right call and you caught hell for it by coaches? You have much more to worry about then just missing a rule, you have to sell your
calls too.

Rut,

My number one concern is to get the call right. If a coach "gives me hell" because he does not know the rulebook, he is in the wrong - not me.

Are you implying that it's OK to not be an expert on the rules if you have the ability to "B.S." a coach into thinking you know the rules when you really don't?

Z

Those are the kind of refs who make it harder the ones who know the rules. The only reason you have to manage the game sometimes is when the coach doesn't know the rules because too many refs call it wrong.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman
how many times have you made the absolute right call and you caught hell for it by coaches? You have much more to worry about then just missing a rule, you have to sell your
calls too.

Rut,

My number one concern is to get the call right. If a coach "gives me hell" because he does not know the rulebook, he is in the wrong - not me.

Are you implying that it's OK to not be an expert on the rules if you have the ability to "B.S." a coach into thinking you know the rules when you really don't?

Z

It is not about "BS'ing" anyone. Whether you want to believe or not. Whether it has happen to you or not, you can be complete correct and you will still have to convince, sell, or whatever adjective you want to use or just be confident about your decisions.

Look, this is a personal preference for me. If you need to work with guys that only have 95 and above on a test score to feel confrontable, the so be it. Unfortunately official have all kinds of talents that they bring to the table. Some are better at one thing over another. I myself have many things I need to work on and it ranges from rules application to court demeanor. I just told you what I perfer in a partner when and if I had a choice. Often times rules knowledge or application is something that a crew has to get right together. Unless you mess up a rule on a block/charge or verticality, but judgement has a lot to do with that to me. But the how many times we shoot on Intentional Fouls and who is shooting those shots is usually something that the crew needs to get right, not just the official that made the call. I had two situations last year that involved correctable error situation, and none of the 4 coaches had a clue what was right or what was wrong. We did both the correct way, but I still had to explain it. My partner and I still had to stay calm and handle it. But then again maybe it is just me.

I really do not understand what you want me to say. You have one way of thinking, I have another. I am still going to feel the same way long after this conversation, and I am sure you will feel the same too. And I have read the very same thing in many publications and Referee Magazine or heard assignors and much more experienced officials than I am at this stage talk about the very same thing. We are just not going to agree, that is OK ya know.

Peace

[AK ref SE]

I have had a similar situation Zebraman. We have an offical who takes the test every year (H.S.) Passes it. With just above passing every year. ( He has been officiating forever.) During game situations who ever he is partnered with has to watch his back. He knows the rules from 15-20 years ago and that is how he remembers and manages his game. I can only assume that the overall NFHS has not changed greatly over the last 15 years, so he can pass the test, but his judgement and knowledge has not progressed in 15 years.

AK ref SE

[112448]

JRut wrote "I myself have many things I need to work on and it ranges from rules application to court demeanor."

with that said, it would seem to me then that you would prefer to work with a partner that could make up for your deficiencies, i.e. rules applications.

if you're not good at rules applications, but one of your two partners is, then he/she can save your butt from incorrectly applying rule 2-10 like you recently did in an AAU game. you yourself came back on and admitted that you kicked that.

on the other side of the coin, if you're working with something that lacks the ability to "manage a game" the way you do, then you'd be able to help that person work a better game.

part of being a R and not a U1 or U2, is recognizing the abilities of those on your crew and letting them utilize their strengths to better the officiating team.

jake

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by 112448
JRut wrote "I myself have many things I need to work on and it ranges from rules application to court demeanor."

with that said, it would seem to me then that you would prefer to work with a partner that could make up for your deficiencies, i.e. rules applications.



jake

Sorry to disappoint you. But I have very little problems getting rules right, especially in a basketball game. Had two different situations with correctable error this past year, and my partner and I got both right. I probably study more rules and mechanics as anyone that officiates. I have to to keep up in 3 sports at very different levels in each.

But unlike some people I look at officiating as basically a team sport. We are a team, not an individual. And it is not like I was the only person that kicked the call, so did my partner. We discussed the issue and that is what we came up with, with the information that I had. Actually I did not even remember everything that happen before the error. Mistake on my part during a summer game that my head was not as much into. Not an excuse, just a fact.

I attended two camps this weekend, and I overheard some evaluators talking about a particular crew on a court and kind of joking about how "there are not a lot of tournament officials on the floor." Interesting that they did not kick any calls. I wonder why they would say such a thing.

Peace

[stripes]

Originally posted by zebraman
I guess it all depends on our experiences. I have never had a partner who put me in a bad spot because of a lack of presence. I guess I have always felt that I could "cover his back" if he seemed a little nervous or unsure. However, I have had partners who put me between a rock and a hard spot with improper rule interpretations. It was about as enjoyable as having teeth pulled without novocaine.

Z

I have had the opposite experience. (Of course I have had problems with blow calls, misapplied rules, etc.) I have also had partners that I knew would be a problem from the time I saw their name on my contract. Why? Because they have no presence. Coaches will chew them (and me) even if they get the calls right. Why? because they have no presence and they are not believable. Maybe you haven't had this experience, but believe me, you will at some point. Some of these guys can quote rules, at length, but coaches don't buy their act.

Z, I don't believe that anyone will say anything to change your mind, but I do believe that you are in the minority on this one.

[zebraman]

Coaches will chew them (and me) even if they get the calls right. Why? because they have no presence and they
are not believable. Maybe you haven't had this experience, but believe me, you will at some point.

I've had that experience, but it doesn't last long. If I have a partner who is getting "picked on," by a coach, I will put a stop to that real quick. If my partner isn't experienced enough in the coach management area, I can handle it. If my partner hasn't read his rulebook, however, there is not much I can do to help him there.

I don't believe that anyone will say anything to change your mind, but I do believe that you are in the minority on this one.

Maybe so, and that's OK. That makes for a good discussion. Like I said earlier, it has to do with our experiences. You've had more trouble with your partner's game management issues and I've had more trouble with partners who don't ever crack a rule book. Maybe I'll have a partner next year that changes my mind.

Z

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman


I've had that experience, but it doesn't last long. If I have a partner who is getting "picked on," by a coach, I will put a stop to that real quick. If my partner isn't experienced enough in the coach management area, I can handle it. If my partner hasn't read his rulebook, however, there is not much I can do to help him there.

Z

Sure Z. I guess you would not mind if that same official curses out the coach, grabs a player or punches a fan that gets on them. But they knew the rules. Whatever.

Peace