Name changed in book at halftime
 

Just had a fellow official give me a call for my take on the following situation that occured in his game last night. I stumbled a little in my interp and told him I would present it to you folks.

Upon returning from halftime, the crew is informed that the visitors made a change in the book. They did not change a number. They changed a name.

It seems that the name by the number was not even a player who was on the team. R decided it was a administrative T and started the game with home shooting two.

Under 3-2-a thru e, I could find no direct reference to the above situation. However, in 3-2-1, the rule book states that each team shall supply the official scorer the name and number of each player.

All of the casebook plays I read have to do with changing a number.

Since we as officials identify all of the players by number and not by name, is this really a technical foul?

nope no T -- how do you then deal with those games where the book only has numbers and no names?

3-2-1 states that official scorer must be presented with names and numbers of each team member.

When was the name changed? Was it changed during halftime or was it changed during the first half and they weren't told about it until halftime?

I'll Just Sit Back And Watch For Now ...
 

NFHS 10-1:

ART. 1: Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time.
PENALTY: (Art. 1) One foul for both requirements. Penalized when it occurs.

ART. 2: After the 10-minute time limit specified in Article 1:
a. Change a designated starter unless necessitated as in 3-2-2a.
b. Add a name to the team member list.
c. Require the scorer to change a team member’s or player’s number in the scorebook.
d. Require a player to change to the number in the scorebook.
e. Have identical numbers on team members and/or players.
PENALTY: (Art. 2) One foul only per team regardless of the number of infractions. (Art. 2a) Penalized if discovered before ball becomes live to start game. (Arts. 2b, c, d) Penalized when they occur. (Art. 2e) Penalized when discovered.

10-1-2-c states that it is a technical foul to change a number in the scorebook after the 10-minute time limit specified in Article 1. 10-1-2-b states that it is a technical foul to add a name after the 10-minute time limit specified in Article 1. So what if #20 is originally listed as John Doe, and #21 is originally listed as James Doe, but at halftime, it is discovered that these names and numbers have been mixed up? The names are already there, so names have not really been added to the scorebook. However once you erase one of the names, then, technically, another name must be added.

However, some may conclude that 10-1-1, which deals with both names and numbers, may carry over after the game has started. But 10-1-2 deals with before the scheduled starting time, which may indicate that it doesn't carry over once the game begins.

Great question ranjo. Let the debate begin.

You tell them to supply the names as well.

easier said then done for lower level games sometimes -- the effort is not worth the hassle.

I really don't understand why we need their names. We call everything by number. As far as I'm concerned, all the kids could each be named "Hey You" and it wouldn't make a darn bit of difference. In fact, I don't care if the kids even have names.

As long as the same physical person is wearing the same jersey number from the 1st half to the second, play on.

I know one team's names...
 

did some 6th grade cyo games today.... one team had a player, who when each subsequent player got the ball he would clearly call out/repeat that name, I guess calling for the ball. "Jim, Jim, Jim", "Joe, Joe, Joe", "Bill, Bill, Bill" etc. Wait a minute, the only name I never heard was the caller. Oh well, I guess I don't know all the names on that team after all.:D

You put a name to a number because otherwise, they could switch jerseys and you couldn't prove they didn't.

It was changed during halftime.

I was the R in this situation. There has to be some accountability for the error in the book @ this level of basketball (BV). For the record, the home team missed both freethrows... so it wasn't a determining factor in the outcome of the game.

Hey Home Boy - Welcome to the forum!:D

If you don't care enough to make the effort to do it right, then please stop officiating. :mad:

Nevada is so...........subtle.

I'd first check to see if there was a sheet of paper with the boys names/numbers supplied to the table from which the info was copied into the book. If there is a sheet and the name is correct on the paper, the coach has fulfilled their obligation under the rules. Change the name and play on.

If the name is incorrect and was copied directly from the paper or there is no sheet, and the book has not yet been changed then ask the coach if it's worth the T to change the name in the score book. Not to get into an argument on intent of the rule but it does say to supply the number and name....wrong name is still a name and I would not give a T if the book wasn't changed.

If the name was changed already, no choice but to inforce the penalty.

Question: What if the name was correct but spelled incorrectly (Kimberly Vs. Kymberly etc.). Book is caught changing the name in the book....what now? Ummm after reading the thread again, BillyMac already had something like I just added.....Great Job Billy!! Well thought out, you are one smart guy!

This was a VHSL Boys Varsity contest, all the i's should be dotted and the t's crossed......

the info was copied from the visitors book to the home "official" book, so the visitors made the mistake.........

Good to be here, thanx for the warm welcome......

Why do they need names? So the opponents know who is starting. Otherwise a team could scramble their numbers every game and keep their warmups on until they step out for the jump...basically defeating the purpose of providing lineups and starters 10 minutes before the game.


And, yes, this is a T. They basically added a new name to the book per 10-1-2b. And applied a number that was listed for someone else...perhaps violating 10-1-2e....but that doesn't really matter since there is only one T applied for all elements of Article 2.

What hassle?

"Coach, I see numbers, but to avoid the T, we need to have names as well. I'll give you an extra minute to do that."

At lower levels (which is really the only place this would be an issue), we usually don't hit them at the 10 minute mark anyway.

Inquiring Minds Want To Know ???
 

Thanks, but to be honest, this, i.e. understanding administrative technical fouls, is one of my goals for the season so I don't mind spending time pondering the various permutations of the penalties (I think I've been reading too many of mbyron's posts lately), I had the day off yesterday, since my game got snowed out, so I had lots of extra time on my hands, and, most importantly, I slept at a Holiday Inn Express Friday night.

I still have several questions about this situation, the most important being, does the ball becoming live at the toss to start the game end the requirements of NFHS 10-1-1, at which point the requirements of NFHS 10-1-2 kick in, or do the requirements of NFHS 10-1-1 last until the end of the game when the officials leave the visual confines of the court?

"Here's My Roster And Starting Lineup" ...
 

Rookies: derwil makes an excellent point here. Please take note. The requirement of 10-1-1 is not that the scorebook be 100% correct. The requirement of 10-1-1 is that team supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time.

Oh please. That's more than a little over the top.

In some (I'd guess many) areas, enforcing all the administrative requirements for Saturday morning Frehsman "C" games, or any "rec league" game would quickly brand you as an OOO.

My point exactly -- as much as I would love to enforce EVERY rule in the book for EVERY level of play -- in reality this is just not possible

Follow-up
 

This afternoon, our board interperter ruled that the crew was correct in administering a technical foul based on 10-1-1 and 10-2-b. Therefore I concur with his ruling. :cool:

Sorry, bob, but I have to agree with Snaqs in post #21. It's not a hassle.
Proper administration of the game is important. It should be done right for all games.

Now how an official judges traveling or 3-seconds during the game is another matter.

So how do you decide which rules to set aside if you can't enforce EVERY rule? We don't have freshman game rulebook or a JV rulebook and then the varsity rule book. Last I looked they all play by the same rules and we are there to enforce them to the best of our ability.
Rec league is a different animal IMO.

Details,Details,Details!
 

Varsity scorers like officials are supposed to be the best of the best! This means knowing the kids names (First and Last) and numbers for the team(s) that you are scoring for. In order to keep this from happening to me I did what was suggested in one of the replies and have been typing out the varsity rosters (I work both boys and girls varsity!). That way all I have to do is give a copy of the appropriate roster to our opponent's scorekeeper. This could have been caught in pre-game if the home scorer had made just a little extra effort. All he/she had to do was ask the visiting coach to verify that all information was correct on the paper. If it was wrong then visiting HC could make the corrections.
It also means dressing and conducting ourselves in a professional manner! I take my job seriously from dress (Golf shirt with school's name/slacks or tie/slacks) to how I handle a game (cell phone on silent and in my bag, communication with fellow table officials & floor officials).