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Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 08:52am
Ref Ump Welsch
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1 or 2 T's?

Had a situation (similar to what I'm posting here, but a little different) last night that got my partner and I to talking afterwards. Team A is shooting 1 and 1. Ball is bounced to the free thrower A1 for his shot. Horn sounds just as the kid gets the ball, and trail looks over to the table and see Team A's sub A6 running in while his teammate has the ball to shoot the 1 and 1.

Our discussion led us to this answer to the situation: T on A6 for entering the game without being beckoned, team T on A for having 6 on the floor during a live ball. A1 shoots his 1 and 1 with the lane cleared, then administer B's free throws for the T's.

I kept reading the rule book and casebook last night, but couldn't find anything definitive that would "disagree" with how we would have ruled on it.

Of course, partner and I agreed that we PRAY this never happens to us but you never know in some of these sub-varsity games.
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Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 08:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch View Post
Our discussion led us to this answer to the situation: T on A6 for entering the game without being beckoned, team T on A for having 6 on the floor during a live ball. A1 shoots his 1 and 1 with the lane cleared, then administer B's free throws for the T's.

Only one T (entering), not two.
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Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 08:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Only one T (entering), not two.
Agreed.
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Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 09:09am
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since the illegal entry T caused the 6 to be on court - only penalize the illegal entry. Also - don't have books with me now but since the clock is not running, and you've already whistled a T for illegal entry - that person has not legally become a "player" have they?
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Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 09:09am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch View Post
Had a situation (similar to what I'm posting here, but a little different) last night that got my partner and I to talking afterwards. Team A is shooting 1 and 1. Ball is bounced to the free thrower A1 for his shot. Horn sounds just as the kid gets the ball, and trail looks over to the table and see Team A's sub A6 running in while his teammate has the ball to shoot the 1 and 1.

Our discussion led us to this answer to the situation: T on A6 for entering the game without being beckoned, team T on A for having 6 on the floor during a live ball. A1 shoots his 1 and 1 with the lane cleared, then administer B's free throws for the T's.

I kept reading the rule book and casebook last night, but couldn't find anything definitive that would "disagree" with how we would have ruled on it.

Of course, partner and I agreed that we PRAY this never happens to us but you never know in some of these sub-varsity games.
We just had a similar discussion on another forum a short time ago. While many of my colleagues disagreed with me (several others agreed), the source of this problem is the inadvertent horn (or, perhaps, a proper horn that the officials ignored). You did not indicate whether it was the visiting team shooting or the home team. But, just for argument sake, let's say, Team A is the visiting team.

An error made by Team B's clock operator -- sounding the horn -- could end up costing Team A four points along with a chance for an offensive rebound, if one of the free throws is missed.

The player must be BECKONED on to the floor by an official -- the horn is for the officials not for the players. That is the rule, that is what many officials point to when telling you that they will begin lighting up Team A like a Xmas Tree. In fact, many of them specifically mention this point in pregame with the coaches and the captains (as though the captains hear anything we say).

Unfortunately, players still view the HORN as their signal to enter -- particularly on free throws. In fact, many players get nervous waiting to come into a game. I have heard officials jump on a player if the player does not immediately respond to the official's beckoning of the player following the horn. Therefore, players, not wanting to get jumped on, jump in quickly when they hear the horn.

In this situation, I am going to blow my whiste as the trail or center AS SOON AS I HEAR THE HORN. Team A's FTer has already been disconcerted from his normal free throw by the horn. I am going to get the ball back to the lead, bring the player onto the floor, and remind him to wait until he is beckoned. At the same time, I am going to ask that the clock operator keep a closer look at the lead official and delay the horn once the official has indicated the number of shots to be taken.

I am issuing zero technical fouls here for the horn sounding. Many others will be giving you the proper procedure for ringing in the T's.

Last edited by CMHCoachNRef; Fri Jan 09, 2009 at 09:54am.
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Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 09:26am
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I'm thinking that both approaches are probably right:

Varsity: players should know better. Call a T for entering without being beckoned.

Sub-varsity: assuming the player at the line has not thrown, shut it down, fix the situation, scold as needed, resume the FT.
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Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 09:42am
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could be another topic but what do you do when players just come on the floor anytime the horn blows. Send them back or address it with the coach.
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Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 09:44am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
I'm thinking that both approaches are probably right:

Varsity: players should know better. Call a T for entering without being beckoned.

Sub-varsity: assuming the player at the line has not thrown, shut it down, fix the situation, scold as needed, resume the FT.
I don't work a lot of V ball, but agree at the lower levels I show restraint. I always emphasize this at the Captain's Meeting......but, we all know how much the Captain's pay attention and carry the info back to the bench.

NOT to be a Topic stealer - but another clock related question.

FB game. A1 at the line shooting two. Misses first. B Coach is requesting time out between foul shots. For whatever reason, R and U don't see or hear request. Clock operator sees this and sounds horn alerting the officials. R approaches table. Clock alerts R. R grants TO. R tells clock operator not to do that again.

Clock operator said - ball was dead, they had information (similar to we have subs that need to come in, or we have a problem with the book) and it was a dead ball and as part of the "refereeing team" was bringing info to the R/U's attention. i.e - Just trying to help.

R was adament not to stop the game or do that again. Not the clocks job.

I looked it up and while I realize (a) it's the coaches responsibility to request a TO and it's not granted at the horn, and (b) it's not the clock ops job to do this at least from what I could read. Would you have a heartache with this at your games? Thanks
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Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 11:02am
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I work only varsity, but I would send the player off without a technical.

As close as we watch for subs, we (95% of the time I'd say) are right with the horn in whistling them in (actually, I intentionally hold the whistle until after the horn blows cause I think it sounds terrible to be on top of the horn). Sub comes in here, he's already been beckoned. Once he realizes he's in for the shooter, we send him back off and I can't imagine anyone complaining about it.
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Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 11:06am
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Originally Posted by RichMSN View Post
I work only varsity, but I would send the player off without a technical.
During a live ball?
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Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 11:18am
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game management

I completely and totally agree with CMHCoachNRef

This is an 8th grade game! No T's, No Penalties. Blow it dead, correct the situation and let the FT shooter tell you when he/she is ready for the ball again.
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Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 02:11pm
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agree with mbyron; one T in V, fix it below that.

As far as the clock and horn, one of my pet peeves is the clock person who sounds the horn AFTER I've blown my whistle and beckoned subs onto the court. I usually go over and ask the person why they sounded the horn then and it seems like EVERY time I get "I thought I am supposed to sound the horn to let everyone know that a sub is coming into the game."

Then the conversation usually goes something like this:

Me: "Letting who know?"
Clock: "you"
Me: "but I already blew my whistle and brought them on the court"
Clock: "oh yeah, well the coach then"
Me: "you mean the person that sent the sub to the table in the first place?"
Clock: "oh, well the other coach then"
Me: "Because they need to know....why,.... if they didn't already pick up on the fact that a player was coming onto the court when I blew my whistle and yelled 'Sub'?"
Clock: now getting sheepish, "well, maybe the parents need to know"
Me: "Good point, I am sure Johnny's parents have no clue that their son is coming into the game, though I am not sure how you sounding the horn once will let then know that it is Johnny and not Sammy coming into the game. Do you sound it twice for Sammy and maybe three times for Carl?"

Oh, and I do try to keep a HUGE grin on my face the whole time so that they know I'm not really trying to be an a**hole about it.

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Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 02:22pm
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Live ball not live in this situation is semantics -- stop the free throw and send the player back -- instruct him that he enters when beckoned loud enough that both teams hear and play on. I wouldnt T here.
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Old Fri Jan 09, 2009, 09:51pm
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They Don't Carry The Same Penalty ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Only one T (entering), not two.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
Agreed.
I also agree, however, for those who may not agree (a reminder: Always listen to bob, and I might add, almost always listen to Scrapper1) and would rather go with the sixth player penalty, rather than the not beckoned penalty, it's important to know which act you're penalizing because they don't carry the same penalty:

Penalized if discovered before the ball becomes live: A substitute shall not enter the court without reporting to the scorer; and without being beckoned by an official, except between periods. Substitute technical foul. A maximum of one foul for either, or both, requirements, reporting, and/or beckoned. A substitute technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball. Once the ball becomes live, the substitute is a legal player at that point, the foul is not penalized.

Penalized if discovered while being violated: A team shall not have more than five team members participating simultaneously. Team technical foul. A team technical foul is charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball. If it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after the ball became live following the first dead ball, it is too late to assess any penalty.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Jan 10, 2009 at 08:56am.
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Old Sat Jan 10, 2009, 01:36am
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
During a live ball?
Yup. I'd get the ball back and reset everything.
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