Angry Coach at Halftime
 

The recent thread on coaches being in the officials' dressing room jogged the following from my memory bank...

Halftime, HS boys V, my 2 partners and I are in our dressing room, the coaches office. As at most schools, it is adjacent to the locker room and the home team coach is railing at his kids who trailed at half. Among the loudest and longest of his many very loud, obscenity-laced "comments" was a diatribe regarding what he, in short, considered to be our poor, biased officiating in the 1st half and how his boys couldn't really expect to compete in an "8 vs 5" game. He obviously aimed these comments at us in the next room with its paper-thin walls. This was in my 2nd year of calling HS games and I wanted to T him up for his "commentary". My partners, who had been calling in this area for years, just laughed and said don't worry about it, its halftime and he's in his locker room outside our jurisdiction, or words to that affect. I really don't recall how the 2nd half went or who won the game.

What would you do in a similar situation? I still haven't completely resolved this one in my mind...

That coach can stay in his lockerroom for the 2nd half.

When a coach directly attacks your personal integrity that conduct warrants a flagrant technical foul. This is HS athletics and the wrong message cannot be allowed to be transmitted to the kids.

There is nothing that puts our jurisdiction on hold between when we arrive on the floor and when we leave the visual confines of the playing area.

That was not a good reason on your partner's part. I guess your partner would have the let the coach directly cuss him out b/c they were away from the court?

Since you could hear the coach through the walls, obviously, he could also hear you. Why didn't you say, very loud, "Hey, how about that idiot coach! The way he's running his team is a joke. This guy is the worst I've ever seen. If his team really wants to win this game, they'll all come out of the locker room and dunk during warmups so we can throw the jerk out and the assistant would take over."

Don't go looking for "T"rouble.
 

I concur with your partners on this one..... It is the coach's lockerroom, as sad as his commentary is, as much as you want to call attention to this idiot's ranting, let it go. He is already "penalizing" the team by creating excuses for his inability to coach.

If he wants to carry this attitude into the second half, you can find ways to address his disrespect on the court in public view.
Depending on whether you care to work there again, you can submit a letter to the AD (as I have in the past) as to what you observed, but it sounds like your partners would not be supportive of this action.

So your partners wouldn't enforce this rule either...:(

10.1.3 SITUATION B:

Fixed it for ya.

Is this a long way of saying that this should be a flagrant technical? If so, I agree.

It's not rabbit ears when they're screaming at you.

It's not like they were hanging outside eavesdropping. The coach knew they were in there.

This all I need to know. Buh Bye!

I'd rather explain this T than explain why I didn't call it.

Thanks for all the comments, observations, and rules/casebook references. While I understand willieb's position that you don't go looking for "T"rouble, I still think we should have T'd this out-of-control coach. But I respected and listened to my much more experienced partners; both were good officials who were otherwise not reluctant to T-up deserving coaches. I called at this small town, Florida panhandle school several times over a 3 year period and never had any other similar or bad experiences...but boy, this one sure sticks with me.

It may simply have been a signal that his leash in the 2nd half was going to be very short if you know what I mean.

I've been told that that is a sure indication that the situation was not handled properly. You know it inside.

NevadaRef has quoted a NFHS Casebook Play that deals specifically with certain electronic equipment whose use is specifically prohibited by rule. As much as much as we would like to apply this Casebook Play to the situation in the OP we cannot because it does not apply.

One could rely on the NCAA's position that if a Head Coach's inappropriate language can be heard outside of the huddle during a timeout, the game officials should penalize the Head Coach. But, I seriously doubt that the NCAA's position could be applied to the same situation in the OP if the game was played using NCAA Rules.

I have no doubt that the Head Coach knew that the game officials could hear his diatribe and that his diatribe was deliberately directed toward the game officials because of that fact. BUT, more experienced game officials were correct in not giving the Head Coach at TF under these circumstances. BESIDES, once the second half started, I am sure that, without baiting the HC, the officiating crew would have a zero tolerance,:D, for either coach stepping out of the coaching box.

MTD, Sr.

I would just write a "Special Report" about the incident after the game. The Special Report (same form used for all ejections) in our state is something the Principal receives as well as the AD automatically (filed online). I would rather put this in the file so that the IHSA knows about it and the school administrators know about it. The IHSA will deal with the situation without my knowledge and either direct the school to move the officials to a better location or consider this behavior when other situations come up with this coach (which you may or may not be involved in). All Special Report filings must be given a response to the IHSA Office by the person being written about. In other words, depending on the administration that hires the coach, the coach might not have a job or at the very least get suspended based on this situation and other incidents that you know nothing about. And the use of language would be the main reason this might result in some sanction.

I do not see how this necessarily falls under the rules when the action is more logistical than a clear violation of unsportsmanlike behavior. Not to say that is not an option, but for me not the best option in my opinion.

Then in the second half, the coach better be on their best behavior, because they would not get the benefit of the doubt when complaining about calls or other things going on the court.

Peace

Leave it to Mr Rutledge and Mr. DeNucci to have the right handle on the situation. I would certainly be uncomfortable issuing a T for behvior that was neither directed at the crew nor on the court but instead "heard through the wall". A special report to the state seems like the right move IMHO.

Thinking about it some more, I would probably just leave the room and find some place to hang out for 5 minutes. Get some water, use the rest room, etc. And then file a report afterwards.

Or maybe just get the AD and have him listen in on the rant live and in person.

BINGO...Contact game management and find a better spot to be for the rest of the evening

-Josh

Tough time backing this one up
 

I have to go with Rut and Mark here.
your juristicion does not include the teams lockeroom - despite Nevada's post about using electronic media - that applies to the use of electronic media for coaching purposes specifically.
The Rant by a player or coach in a passage way was directed toward an offical, and there by punnishable.

While you "know" the comment was directed at/to you, you can not make a strong enough case IMO to justify the T. What if it is the visiting coach and he doesn't know the place has thin wall or that you are next door?

Handle it through the proper channels by filing a report - and in the second half if the coach opens his mouth in anyway that would reenforce those comments, let him have it.

IMHO, you could go either way on this. There is ample justification for a T to start the second half. The comments were obviously directed at the officials, and the punishment would fit the crime.

However, I can also understand the reluctance to go that route. And it shouldn't be too difficult to find a suitably insignificant reason to award the idiot his T in the second half. If the coach wants to make an issue of it, let him know that if you have to file a report due to his ejection, there will be a very detailed recounting of the halftime diatribe.

Agreed...but now NevadaRef is going to come along and tell them they are cowards also. This could get interesting!!:p

I might go this route, and here, we have to file a report on any T.

A coach yelling at ½time might go on about the bad calls. That's just a difference of opinion.

But if s/he is yelling so much that people outside the change room can hear, such as fans, administrators, and especially the other team, etc, and the coach is going on about the refs are cheating or how they are homer refs, not calling a T is not doing your job.

I do like the idea of getting the game manager (especially if this is the AD) and telling him/her that this is the reason we'll be starting the second half with free throws and let him/her listen to the coach's rant.

One of my only two ejections in over 20 years was during my 5th or 6th year working a JV boys game. Coach got whacked in the first half and came after me in the hall during halftime. I told him that he was ejected and if I so much as saw him on the floor we would forfeit the game to the other team. He didn't return, but I wish it would've happened in front of some other people besides me and my partner.

This may stick with you and you only, but if you had called a T, you would have had that tag with you for the rest of your refereeing career. " Here is the ref who puts his ear next to the locker room wall and if he hears one bad thing about the officiating, he T's them."

Even if this was not the case at all, thats what the story would be.

There's quite a bit of truth to this, I'm afraid. It's impossible for us to control the impression this gives because there's no witnesses.

My partners word is good enough for me. I'd rather not have a lot of people who might have bias around it makes it simpler.

Everyone is saying deal with it, but in different ways.
I personally am going to let a coach rant and rave in their locker room all they want, if other people hear them they can complain.
I may fill out a report as to what the coach said etc, I may try to get an administrator but the odds are that it will be too late, if I hear it walking by or through the walls. But that is their locker room and if they want to act the fool - fine. Having said that - the coaches best course of action in the second half is to have a seat and coach the team, because they are at the end of the leash at that point. If I am filling out paperwork already - another paragraph or two about this idiot is no big deal.


I do not find anything that says I can go get a coach for what they say in their locker room in the rules or case plays.

It seems like some people are changing their opinions back and forth. :D Isn't it great to hear different points of view?

I wouldn't give the coach a T for this, but that coach would act like an angel for the rest of the game. We know they say these kinds of things all the time. Since I assume this sort of thing goes on all the time I would just do a report and be done with it. Coaches, at least while working in the coach capacity, are not our friends and don't necessarily care of for us at all. Part of the job.

I already knew how Rut would come down on this. He has a demonstrated history on this forum of taking the path of least resistance and a lack of desire to deal with unsporting behavior. He seems to want to just go with the flow. Therefore, I find it most ironic that his signature line seems to be in admiration of people who took the difficult path in order to do what they believed was right and change our society. How we live with and treat each other was important to those people. Sadly, I guess Rut is willing to enjoy the fruits of their labors, but doesn't have what it takes to do something similar when called to action or at least stand up with them. Of course, I've completely given up on him and ignore most of his posts. I already know that the character of that individual doesn't warrant any of my time.


It is the position of MTD that shocks and disappoints me.

How he can write that, yet advocate not levying the penalty of a technical foul against the coach completely baffles me.

I always thought of him as someone who cares about sportsmanship in the HS game and the proper conduct and manners of people. He certainly has talked of how he raised his sons in an upstanding manner on this forum. Certainly the mission statement of the NFHS of developing good citizens has to mean something to him or he wouldn't have been as involved in HS athletics as he is for as long as he has been. Therefore, it truly puzzles me that when a coach is clearly delivering the wrong message to the young men under his tutelage that he would advocate that the official not step in with a clear and firm action that the youngsters can see in contrast to the poor behavior from their supposed role model. At the HS level coaches are supposed to be teaching more than just the game, and officials clearly have a role in promoting sportsmanship. In this case, the coach isn't properly fulfilling his role as a steward of his young charges. He isn't simply criticizing the calls or performance of the officials, but with his 8 v. 5 comment is actually calling them cheaters. Furthermore, he is directly telling the youngsters on his team that those three adults are intentionally being cheating them. I don't know of a more insulting comment that a coach can make than to impugn the personal integrity of a game official. This offense, in front of the very youth for which the coach is supposed to be setting a good example, is unconscionable and calls for sterner action than just a behind the scenes filing of a report. The kids won't see the report, but they do see the action and hear the words of the coach, and that needs to be contradicted by public punishment so that the kids understand that this behavior is wrong. This situation is about doing what is right for the kids.
Lastly, two other comments.
1. I don't agree with not penalizing the coach for this offending speech, but getting him for something else in the second half. To me that fails to deal with the heart of the matter. It is akin to the federal government getting Al Capone for income tax evasion. I say penalize what should be and don't look for something else to make up for it. That's not justice or addressing the problem head on. That's skirting the issue.

2. MTD referenced the coach using inappropriate language which can be heard outside of the huddle during a time-out and wrote that it was an NCAA position. In fact, the NFHS takes the very same position. This appeared as a POE in 2004-05.

Inappropriate language. The committee is concerned about the use of inappropriate language by players, bench personnel, coaches, officials and spectators. Each group has a responsibility to the game and to each other to demonstrate civility and citizenship.
The team huddle is not a safe haven for coaches' bad language. Players are not permitted to "let off steam" by using profanity, even if it is not directed at an opponent or official. Being angry at oneself is no excuse. Officials are not exempt either. Inappropriate references to players or coaches are not acceptable. Game administrators must also pay particular attention to fans. A game ticket is not a license to abuse.

Again we are referring to something out in the open and directly under the jurisdiction of the officials ...

If the comments were made in the huddle and I heard them OH YEAH - coach has a seat belt on the bench or possibly in their bus for the ride home!

But I still say the locker room is OOB, Nun Ya, off limits, what ever, that is an admistrative officials area to deal with.

I am with Nevada. If the coach is speaking/talking/yelling with the intent of the official to hear, the coach does not get a free pass.

But if you can show me an official specifically has jurisdiction over the teams locker room I'll jump on board.
Because based on this logic - if you go back into the locker room at the 6 minute mark and the team is in there and the coach is giving his Rah Rah speech in the same locker room and he says, go out there and kick their
F^(#&@g A$$e$ and you hear it, you have to Whack him for that !

Intent ?
Who says it is for the officials to hear?
The coach isn't on the floor - you can not see him - maybe it is just a pep talk - that is a tough call to say he intends it.

Read the OP, in the official's judgment, it was intended for the officials.

He already has, in this very thread:

out in the open with I believe the legal term would be "no expectation of privacy." I may be reading into this but I am seeing this as the comment was made to the official.


in a locker room there is "an expectation of privacy " for a team, and no where does it say the official has authority over what goes on inside the locker room, that is not directly related to some other violation of the rules that I am aware of.

the offical thinks it is intended for their benifit - and I do not doubt it. I just do not think that it is sufficient for you to T this coach up.
I do not disagree that it is a terrible thing that he does, I just do not think you have any jurisdiction over it once they go behind the closed doors of that locker room.

It's the official's judgment that matters on that point.

Please see the case play Nevada posted showing officials have jurisdiction behind closed doors.

I'm going to keep posting this until you at least address it.

An easy way to tell if someone takes themself too seriously is when they question someone's morals because they disagree with them on a subject as trivial as the rules of basketball.

10.1.3
addresses the use of electronic media directly, and does not give the official authority in the dressing room w/o the use of electronic media occuring.

It is also another of those unenforcable rules - since without direct knowledge of the communication or review occuring, there is no way to determine that it has happened, unless you search the dressing room, and to the best of my knowledge you have no authority to do that.

In this sitch presented, the OP says he judged the coach to be speaking to the officials through thin walls.

Who says it is for the officials to hear? - Anyone else ever hear a coach say, "But, I wasn't talking to you." After whistling up a T?

Rather than striving to come up with reasons not to penalize the coach for his terrible behavior, I would advocate that an official simply take action.

I'm continually amazed at the lengths to which people will go to avoid dealing with unsporting behavior. Why is there this unwillingness?

This has been a very interesting series of posts.... as a father of a varsity basketball player, personally I think you should have immediately ejected him, in front of all his kids, while in the locker room... (IMHO, the locker room is NOT a sanctuary to do BAD things) and made sure that he earned at the very least a few games off to reflect on his coaching style (NFHS has zero tolerance for "bad language" as does the LHSAA)... Now, as a non-professional referee... i just dabble in the minors :)... I would have whacked him... rule references be damned, as a "Coach, you know that just ain't right" should suffice... of course since he's already whacked, he's a dead man and I don't talk to dead men.
As a professional umpire "if there is such a thing...lol" I am amazed... no make that totally baffled...no, make that flabbergasted... that behavior like this is tolerated. Although "playing devils advocate here for lack of rule references" sometimes the rules don't allow/reference for such over the top, totally ridiculous behavior and good common sense must rule.

You asked for an instance where we are shown to have authority in the locker room. There it is. I'd say the burden's on you to prove it's only for one infraction of the rules (use of electronic media).

http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...mages/clap.gif

Case Play 10.1.3
 

the reference is for rule 10 section 1 article 3
which specificall covers only the use of electronic media for coaching communicating with players -

Rule 10 Fouls and Penalties
SECTION 1 TEAM TECHNICAL
A team shall not:
ART. 3 . . . Use television monitoring or replay equipment or computers (other than for statistics) for coaching purposes during the game or any intermission or use a megaphone or any mechanical sounding device or any electronic transmission device at courtside for coaching purposes, or electronic equipment for voice communication with players.

where does this give you blanket authority over the lockerroom?

Cajun
I see what you are saying and yes common sense says whack them - however there is nothing in the rules that says you have the authority to do so.
That is the issue, find a way to deal with it.

But you can not tell me you are going to whack a coach if he mouths off and cusses in his locker room during his pre game speech to his team, or he says these three officials are going to homer us - it happens everytime we come here, after the referee's authority begins at the fifteen minute mark and you happen to be in the locker room and over hear it.

So if you accept the 10.1.3 case play as your authority - then you have to act here in the same manner - and in 25 years at upper levels I have never heard of a game or a half starting with a T because of a speech eminating from a locker room.

Since I figure that the odds are that neither of us will convince the others of our correctness I will take the lead and get some rules interpreters opinions as well as try to get rules editors to respond also. It may take a week or more to get the appropriate answers.

Tell me where it says our authority stops on the court? There is nothing anywhere that suggests the media rule is an exception to some policy stopping our jurisdiction at the closed doors of the locker room.

In all those years of "upper levels," how many times have you heard of such a speech being heard by the officials?

BTW, I'm not arguing a T is the best call here; I'll leave that to Nevada. I will argue, however, that you have solid rules backing for it.

Again, where does it say your jurisdiction stops at the door?

ART.2...The official's jurisdiction, prior to the game, begins when they arrive on the floor. The official's arrival on the floor shall be at least 15 minutes before the scheduled starting time of the game.

ART.3...The official's jurisdiction extends through periods when the game may be momentarily stopped for any reason.

ART.4...The jurisdiction of the officials' is terminated and the final score has been approved when all officials leave the visual confines of the playing area.

ART.1...Penalize unsporting conduct by any player, coach, substitute, team attendant or follower.

I have nothing that allows us specifically in the locker room.

Actually quite a few times, I have been in officals locker rooms that are next to team rooms and heard people and officials get called several wonderful expletives, players and other teams called things that are inappropriate, and once I was getting dressed for my game and heard the visiting coach outside the locker room speaking about how bad the JV officals were while they were in the locker room. it comes up maybe not this blatant but I would say that this comes up once or twice a year.

I am going from the opposite angle - where do we get the authority.
I am interested in some official response.

You don't have to go into the locker room any more than you have to go into the huddle. it's not like we've got the place wired.

To go back to your legalese, if a cop smells marijuana coming from the car, probable cause has been given. If I hear him directly calling me a cheat using expletives in the process, I may have to call the T.

You've got a direct case play indicating that the coach is not immune from the rules even in the confines of his closed locker room. There is nothing that indicates this jurisdiction is an exception.

That said, my threshold for a T is going to be higher here than on the court. If he swears at his players in the locker room, I've got nothing. But taking the opportunity to accuse us of cheating is over the line.

As far as the geographical limits of the officials jurisdiction:

2-2-1: The officials shall make decisions for infractions of the rules committed within or outside the boundary lines.


That pretty much covers everywhere, doesn't it?

So the rule book says it is the official's decision. It does not say the official SHALL or MUST give a T to the coach for something he says in the locker room at halftime. It is a decision. Some would call the T...some wouldn't.

For any official to call another a coward, or question their parenting skills, or their moral fiber simply because that official doesn't see this situation the same way as they do is flat-out wrong. It does nothing more than show the kind of person the name-caller truly is.

All I know is this fence doesn't feel good on my back side.

Watch out for splinters.

I would call the T. I don't think my jurisdiction stops at half-time. However, if someone else chooses not to - that's fine. That is their decision. It doesn't hurt the game of basketball if we don't call it. Basketball has been around far too long for one whiny coach to damage the game. Neither does it erode society if we don't call it.

A far bigger problem for basketball is officials who feel free to call their brethren things like "coward" when the brethren won't call something the way that person wants it called. That is what is disturbing...

Agreed. I find this unacceptable.

Easy, buddy. Don't shoot the messenger. I was just saying that I find this sufficient proof that the technical can indeed be called in the locker room if the official decides it is merited. Just to clarify, some of you that would not call the T in the locker room, is there an instance where you would call it for the same remarks overheard coming from the huddle, or is this still considered to be a private place?

As far as how much is too much in this situation, I find the combination of the comments being "obscenity-laced," along with the use of the word "biased," to be two big strikes. If, on top of this, the officials are reasonably certain that the coach knows they hear him, I have no trouble with the T call.

Having said all this, I am uncertain how the coach gets the news. Do we knock on the door? "Coach, my partner is at the table reporting a technical foul on you for your comments. Your coaches box is gone for the second half. If you wish to see the second half, you should knock it off now."

Or simply say that he's earned the right to finish and settle up when everybody returns from the locker room?

Great thread.

I'm trying to relate it to my sport, baseball - but its near impossible since baseball has no intermission.

Anyways, thought I would throw a thought out there.

What about ignoring it during the half, and then getting the guy the first time he says ANYTHING to you in the 2nd half. If you can slip in a "That's enough" beforehand, great, if not, don't sweat it.

I am envisioning coming back into a gym, and nobody there (including those that are on your side, admins and scorekeepers) knowing what happened in the locker room. Our job is to a) do our job and b) keep a good perception in doing that job.

You're going to catch ALOT of **** for directly dealing with this locker room stuff during that game, and maybe even from assignors in the future.

I don't like baiting, but sometimes in baseball anyways, my mind is made up about a guy, and I want to get rid of him or at least tell him "that's enough," but I can't do it at that time because of other circumstances (in this case, it could be the locker room).

So first chance you do get, maybe an throw-in in front of his bench, give him a "Coach, I didn't make out all of that half-time speech? Care to repeat?" If he comes back with a yes, you got him. Comes back with a no, give him a "Guess I'll have to yell through the showers at you after the game." Say something like that, and I can't imagine any coach keeping his mouth shut. Bam, got him.

And its out in the open, we got a T, 2,000 people saw him lose it, and only 2 people know what was really said, you and him.

Not baiting, just slight manipulation to get what you want without the negative consequences of leaving him in the locker room at half. Just a thought.

Gentlemen:

I have read a number of posts in this thread since my first post. Many of these posts quoted various NFHS Basketball Rules that could possibly be applied to this situation. BUT you do not want to go where many people want to go. DO NOT charge the HC with a TF!

Charging the HC with TF in this situation is a no win situation because it cannot be defended by rule, now matter how many different rules are quoted.

No one will ever accuse me of being a namby pamby when it comes to sportsmanlike behavior, BUT, I am not going to charge the HC with a TF in this situation. Baseball and softball umpires have a saying: Don't go looking for boogers. Charging the HC with a TF in this situation is a Jimmy Durante's nose full of boogers.

AND, there are many many ways that the officials can take care of this HC once the second half begins. And I am sure that there are many many officials who are very very diligent in applying the appropriate Secions of Rule 10 that apply to misconduct of the HC while the game is actually being played.

MTD, Sr.

It's about to get even better :)

I predict 13 pgs.

Wow, I disagree with this post on every possible level. :(
The poster shies away from dealing with the unsporting conduct because he is afraid of taking some heat for do so, but then actually advocates trying to bait and manipulate the coach into a technical foul later in the game in order to make up for it. :eek:
Why not take the high road and conduct yourself in an upstanding manner and take care of business with the coach. You'll certainly get less grief for trying to deal with this the right way than by attempting some underhanded method.

Mark, I have yet to be told why the rules and case plays don't apply.

They don't apply for those who don't want them to apply. They do apply for those who desire them to. It's that simple.

Considering the NFHS's stance on sporting behavior and inappropriate language, I'm very comfortable penalizing this coach. That kind of stuff is unacceptable at the HS level. I just can't see any assignor or state governing body having a problem with an official taking action here.

This was the gut-level response I had when this episode originally occurred and I still feel this way. The coach displayed horrible sportsmanship to his kids and we let him get away with it! That's what still gnaws at me. :mad:

I appreciate all the responses and recommended courses-of-action, I intellectually understand them all, I'm a manage/call-the-game-by-all-the-rules kinda guy though I've certainly never been accused of being an OOO. BUT...HS sports are (or at least are supposed to be) an extension of the classroom/school activities. As a HS teacher (I wasn't at the time of the incident, BTW) it just bothers me that I and my partners didn't immediately deal with this coach's unacceptable behavior. I have three daughters who all played HS sports and I would not have wanted them to witness or be subjected to this coach's behavior.

Two Examples ...
 

I'm on the fence on this issue. I might, or might not, give a technical foul here, but at the minimum, I'm letting the site director, athletic director, and possibly the principal, know what transpired in that locker room, probably through my assigner. In any case, the coach is not going to get away with this.

Many years ago, as I was running past the home team's bench, I heard the head coach yell to his point guard, "Get your f***ing head in the game", after she had the ball stolen, leading to an easy score. It was intended for only her to hear, but I heard it, as did a few girls on the bench. On the way out that night, I reported this to the athletic director, telling him that I thought it was inappropriate, particularly on the high school level, especially with female players. He told me that he appreciated the information, and that he would take care of the matter. I guess he did, because I've never heard that coach use a curse word since that night.

A few years ago, one of our best officials heard a coach, outside his dressing room, give a curse-laced halftime speech to fire up his players. None of the curses were directed at the officials. The next day, the official called the high school principal to report the coach's halftime comments to his players. Although the principal thanked the official for the information, we later heard through the grapevine that the athletic department, from the athletic director down, was not pleased that our official went "over their heads". There was also some discussion within our local board whether the official had done the right thing in this case. Many thought that he probably should have made his complaints known through our assigner.

Listen, maybe in basketball you guys want to handle it. My comments were preceeded by my own baseball background, although I do officiate basketball as well.

As a previous poster said, don't go looking for boogers, they will only lead to bad situations that the best of game management can not fix.

My philosophy was punishing the coach for his actions in a different way, not really baiting him in to do something else. Get him for anything you want in the first 2 mins of the 3Q, but I can't imagine how shooting 2 before the half even starts ends up well.

Its not being a namby pamby, it's dealing with it in a different way. I'll leave the thread on the note, since as I said, my experience on the sport level is baseball, not as much basketball, but thought I would throw in general game management philosophy.

I'm going with Rut and MTD on this one. Rut beat me to the special report and I am not starting a half with a T for something an idiot coach says in the locker room to his players. If he says to our face, WHACK! But his report card better say that "coach played very nicely with others in the second half."

To all who advocate a T:

Seeing and Hearing is tantamount. You must be 100% of what infraction has happened and Who committed the infraction.

IF you penalize the foul must be assessed to a specific individual. That means I must have both seen AND heard the infraction. Seeing tells me exactly who must be penalized. Hearing only tells me which rule infraction to penalize (10-4-1) as in this case during halftime everyone is bench personnel (4-34-2).

No seeing = guessing. The best officials DO NOT GUESS.

Note: in all citations so far to advocate T while in locker room areas of the school the referee has both seen and heard the infraction (ie. electronic equipment, T in hallway)

Only guessers assess a T without visually seeing who committed the infraction.

My post was obviously not directed at you, since I don't remember you calling anyone any names in this thread.

This is the only argument I can appreciate for definitively not calling the T. However, we all know there are some coaches with distinctive enough voices that make hearing just as good as seeing.

Preacher, have you ever called a T on a coach for a comment he made to you while he was standing directly behind you?

I'm trying to see how this is not baiting. Especially considering this.

If there is uncertainty, you have a point which is certainly valid. But in the OP, which I think would be the rule rather than the exception, identifying the guilty party does not seem to be a problem.

Snaq

I appreciate you get my point.

Fortunately, in 27 years I have not had this happen. The difference is on the court we do have visual contact and are visible to everyone in the gym. And secondly the Voice right behind me is more recognizable or identifiable than the sound of a vioce coming through 12 inch concrete walls or even a closed door.

Side note: When I learned to become a pilot I had my peripheral vision evaluated. The doctor was amazed that it exteded so far behind me. He said it was almost like having eyes in the back of my head.

To bait or not to bait? that is the question. No, better just use slight manipulation.

My dictionary defines manipulation as: "management with use of unfair, scheming, or underhanded methods esp. for ones own advantage.

FYI...unfair, scheming, and underhanded are not complimentary words used to describe acceptable behavior.

I have been pondering this last sentence. It's a good thing some of us are anonymous on this board as your words reek of unethical behavior in (forgive the analogy) biblical proportions.

IMO, it's not baiting because you are still giving him choices. If you want to give a T for the halftime stuff, I guarantee all hell will break loose if you do it coming out of the half. You may say "not my problem, his actions need punishment." I say its a battle you can't win, pick it else where. Like on something you can win... right out in the open court.

He'll flip, bench will flip, hell home scorer might flip. Then whatda ya got? A situation you ain't ever fixing for the last 16.

Hell, you could make an argument that doing it behind the scenes is baiting another 5 T's.

I'd penalize him too, and him and me would know its about what he did at halftime, everyone else will think he must have said a magic word into my ear. You may say that he'll cry foul about it, but I bet that he doesn't want his AD to know what he did back there, so he'll probably bite his tongue. And the cosmic forces realign, Team B gets their two shots.

It's not perfect, and I have some problems with it, but it's the best way IMO. Any other way produces an outcome I don't want.

If he did it running off the court into half, we'd have another story.

You job as an official is to react to what happens and apply the rules. That alone determines the outcome of the game. It is not up to you to orchestrate the outcome so it fits what you want. Unethical.

Get it through your head that baiting and manipulating are the same thing and both are unethical methods for an official to use.

If I were your partner in any game where you used the kind of game management you described causing a coach's Tor ejection my letter to the assigner/state office would be to recommend removal of your officiating permit.

How many times do I have to say unethical.

All these comments that we must give a T, is based on only personal interpretations. And in a situation like this, I want a little more than personal interpretations. When I am unclear about a rule, I do not ask people on a discussion board for guidance if I cannot find one in some concrete literature. Honestly for someone to suggest that we must give a T is only using their personal interpretation of the situation and is not basing it on anything that has been addressed the National Federation or any state organization (and certainly not in my state). This is why the NF tells people to refer to their state organizations for these kinds of information.

Also for the record, filing a report is more than an easy way out. Unlike some people here, filing a report puts your name and reputation on the line when you file such a report. And you are also saying that the action warrants more than just an action in a game. In my state filing a "Special Report" has to be answered to by the coach (in this case) and to more people than just the IHSA. I have filed reports only to have Athletic Directors or Principals call me directly for follow up information and in one case I am convinced this lead to the firing of a coach because the things were brought to light that the AD or Principal never witnessed. Sometimes the people that hire coaches are not aware of certain behavior that they might feel is totally unacceptable. There are administrators that believe strongly that these games are an extension of the classroom and want to know when their coaches are not acting accordingly. The fans and other observers do not know why there is a Technical Foul given and all giving one might do is prove how you interpret the rules. If you write a report, then the right people know of the situation and can take action if they see fit. I compare this situations as going to a store manager and complaining about a situation in a store, rather than putting your complaining in writing to the corporate office. I can tell you the writing to the corporate office is taken a little more seriously than the person just talking to a store manager that may never be forgotten.

I also feel that people that are always trying to make moral evaluations on what we penalize in a game are really misguided and flat out stupid. I have never made a judgment in a basketball game where morals played much of a role. I have yet to see a Technical Foul or not giving a Technical Foul being seen as a sin under my religious values. Then again, it is always been just a game to me.

Peace

I am a newer guy, but my interpretation of the rules is that we react and administer prenatys to actions that are directed at us IN PERSON. confrontations in hallways during half time or on the court would be delt with.

Having an obviously irate coach, yelling at his players at half time with words that berate officials is not direct confrontation. this may just be his way of motivating the players, be it good or bad. Some coaches like to play up that everyone is "against us", so get out there and battle back".

I would be cognizant of his demeanor as we begin play for the second half. does he seem calm and into coaching his team? Is he questioning officials? Is he confrontational with his every movement?

If everything is copasetic, I would just do my job and move on. If, howerver, he starts smarting off, i would "T" him.

We are suppose to be the voice of reason.

then I would tell the assignor of the problem with the walls, and let them deal with a change.

Great forum
 

I have enjoyed all the posts for this discussion and know that sometimes these can get a little heated. Posting online vs. talking in person gives some opportunities to write things that would not be said in person when directed at others.

I think this topic is relevant in a situation that can happen to all of us. Each person has their opinions on things that have happened to them and I am glad to read these in case it ever happens to me or the crew I am working with.

I personally would not give a "T" in this situation, but would contact the assigner regarding these comments.

I hope everyone a great new year and a great season!

-KG;)

I still haven't taken a solid position on whether I'd call the T. It really depends on what was said, exactly.

However, I need to disabuse you of this notion. A coach's comments do not have to be directed to you in order to call a T. If he said the same thing to his players in the huddle, it's a flagrant T.
The fact is, the OP was standing in the coach's office. The coach knows very well what can be heard in his own office from the locker room he's standing in.

And there's nothing that says comments have to be done in person. Preacher Long's comments on knowing positively that it's the coach aside, I see nothing in the rules that require it.

I will add, if you call the T, you better truly know who said it.

He won't flip, he'll be in the locker room. If I call this T, it's gonna be flagrant given the profanity and accusations.

And yes, it is baiting. Dancing around it by calling it something else is just silly. I'm with the Preacher on this one. Give him a short leash if you want, but don't go baiting him into it. If you do as your original post says, you'll have to answer for it or lie about it when the coach reports your comments to the state, your assigner, or both.

Only if you want to make the argument that calling a deserved T baits a coach into another one. As I said, he won't get any more in my game.

He'd walk out to the court with his team, and I'd inform him, the bench, and the other coach that we're calling a flagrant Technical foul on him. He's ejected.

frankly, your way produces an outcome I don't want. Either call the T or don't, but don't bait him into a different one.

Hell, if you want, call the T after the 2nd half starts and flat out tell him, "It's for what you said at half time."

If this issue is so important to a referee, why not just knock on the door and ask the coach "Are those remarks, (and the official would repeat them), addressed at us?"

If he says yes, then toss him. If he says no, then report to Assignor and/or AD what happened and that something should be done about the approximity of the dressing room.

[QUOTE=Ch1town;562512]ART.2...The official's jurisdiction, prior to the game, begins when they arrive on the floor. The official's arrival on the floor shall be at least 15 minutes before the scheduled starting time of the game.QUOTE]

Similar situation, you are in dressing room before game starts, coach in adjoining one, and coach finds out name of officials and starts shouting in his locker room "These are the same F******** A**holes we had last month."

Then you go up to court and coach says "Hi Guys"

What are you going to do now?

Introduce myself and my partners and then referee the game. How about you?

Yup. My jurisdiction doesn't start until we get onto the court.

Same thing I'd do if he went into the tirade in the locker room after the game. I'll file a report, but that'll be it on this sitch.

By rule, there's absolutely nothing we can do in your situation. But the leash is short plus coach is wearing a choker :D

I posted the following because it seemed as though some of us were unsure of when our jurisdiction was in effect.

Same here and if he showed us complete respect the whole game I would not even report the incident.

Thank God! For a second there, I thought I wasn't going to have anything to disagree with.

Why report him. He is on my short leash forever and knows it.

Two for two. :)

I'm reporting it because his behavior has no place in high school sports. If the AD wants to do nothing with the report, not my problem. If the state wants to do nothing with the report, not my problem. I'd report that just as I'd report him pounding on the dressing room door after a game.

I'll agree to putting him on a short leash during the game. However, after the game, it's over. Next game will be a clean slate.

This sounds like a certain school in southern california maybe?

As much as you might want to T here you can't and shouldn't. Unless a coach directly assaults you (verbally or physically) during half time you can't go after him here. But you DON'T have to take an iota of crap once the game starts from him or his players.

I also don't hold coaches or players guilty from one game to another. I might know a coach is an a-hole and I might not grant him as much patience in the future, but the leash isnt really that much shorter than usual, I would just ask him to put a stop to his whining sooner than I might. This takes years of pattern building and a-hole'dness to reach this level.

Got a rule quote for this?

Yes -- the coach isnt directly addressing the officials and its in the locker room! I am all for T's when they are necessary, and I think they are way more necessary than they are used and not enough are called. But this situation is a reach.

That's not a rule.
First off, you know he doesn't have to directly address you in order to get a T.

Secondly, the case play has already been provided showing the rules apply to the locker room as well. Show me the rule that says you can't call this T.

If you don't want to call the foul, whatever I don't care, that is up to you. But you can't sit here and say that the rules do not allow calling the foul. You know that is wrong. The officials have jurisdiction everywhere until the game ends.

On defense in the 1st half, coach of Team B says to his players "move your feet, these refs are calling ticky-tack fouls on our end".
This type of commentary continues a few more trips down the court.

We let this slide because coach is not directly addressing us??
Or are you saying ignore comments not made directly to us during intermissions??

Snaq -- are you referring to the situation with the electronics (because that doesnt apply) or 10.4.1 SITUATION B: where its in a public hall and not in THEIR locker room where they have an expectation of privacy. Neither of these cover a T in this situation.


So SNAQ where does it say YOU SHOULD????


All I will say to the coach if he says this a couple times is move on from that point. Besides this is good coaching -- he recognizes how we are calling the game (he might not like it) but hes telling his kids to PLAY BETTER DEFENSE. Why would I get upset at this comment. Coaches who cry "Three Seconds" "Thats a travel" blah blah blah, does not bother me. They are just crying for calls. I would not waste my breath on a coach if I hear him say this in a huddle.