4 ot

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

No scoring in fourth OT until Unionville sticks back a miss with about 1.5 to go and that's it.

Wow, 3:58.5 with no points? Not even a free throw? That's unusual, unless they held the ball out and just let the clock run. (Even that's unusual. )

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Wow, 3:58.5 with no points? Not even a free throw? That's unusual, unless they held the ball out and just let the clock run. (Even that's unusual. )

Had even worse in a JV girls game. Roughly 8:00 with no scoring.

[bigbeardedbryan]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Had even worse in a JV girls game. Roughly 8:00 with no scoring.

My first game in PA went double overtime (JV girls... any parallels?). Teams were in the double bonus with 5 minutes to go in the 4th quarter and finished regulation tied at 24. Both teams had twelve attempts from the line in the first overtime; we started the second overtime tied at 24.

Sorry for the derail, back to jump balls with this thread!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bigbeardedbryan

My first game in PA went double overtime (JV girls... any parallels?). Teams were in the double bonus with 5 minutes to go in the 4th quarter and finished regulation tied at 24. Both teams had twelve attempts from the line in the first overtime; we started the second overtime tied at 24.

Sorry for the derail, back to jump balls with this thread!

Screw the jump balls.
The game I mentioned was tied at 18 with 2 minutes left in regulation.
Two minutes into the 2nd overtime, it was still 18-18. We had a girl at the line with time expired in the first OT and she missed both shots.

My partner and I were also up next in the varsity game with a third official; they had to wait on us as well as a few girls for the varsity game.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Wow, 3:58.5 with no points? Not even a free throw? That's unusual, unless they held the ball out and just let the clock run. (Even that's unusual. )

Maybe two possessions each way. Each team was trying to control the tempo and slow it down.

And the coaches were both fairly quiet. All in all a fun game!

[26 Year Gap]

Wow. Back to the 70s with all those jump balls. Thanks for reminding me.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Back to the 70s with all those jump balls. Thanks for reminding me.

And thanks for reminding me to put in one last 2008 plug for eliminating the last jump ball left over from a different era in time.

Monday night, as the umpire I missed the jumper tip, and then catch the tip. I was too busy watching the eight nonjumpers, but it's still not a good excuse. My partner, the referee, told me that by the time he put the whistle back in his mouth, he thought it was to late, not by rule, but just way too late to call the violation. None of the coaches, players, or fans complained. I will admit that I'm not as familiar with all the jump ball requirements as I was when we were having several jump balls in each game. Again, not a good excuse, but this method of starting a game should be done away with. Dr. Naismith originally had jump balls after every goal, then we progressed to only having jump balls to start periods, and to make the ball live after held ball situations, and now we only have jump balls to start the game, and extra periods. The natural progression is to now do away with all jump balls. We no longer use Dr. Naismith's rule regarding ending the game in a tie, or in sudden death, so why keep his jump ball rule? He is more likely to roll over in his grave due to what NBA players are now allowed to do with their pivot foot, than he is to roll over because we did away with his precious jump ball.

Now, do you want me to tell you what I really think?

[Nevadaref]

We should place the ball in the center of the court and have the two teams line up at opposing end lines, and then let them charge for it.

That would increase safety in the game.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

We should place the ball in the center of the court and have the two teams line up at opposing end lines, and then let them charge for it.

Isn't that they way they started football games in that short-lived XFL, featuring Rod "He Hate Me" Smart.

[stmaryrams]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

We should place the ball in the center of the court and have the two teams line up at opposing end lines, and then let them charge for it.

That would increase safety in the game.

Just like the XFL. I remember when they had a player injured during the pregame scrum that replaced the coin toss.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by stmaryrams

Just like the XFL. I remember when they had a player injured during the pregame scrum that replaced the coin toss.

Replacing the coin toss at the beginning of each game was an event in which one player from each team sought to recover a football 20 yards away in order to determine possession. Both players lined up side-by-side on one of the 30-yard lines, with the ball being placed at the 50-yard line. At the whistle, the two players would run toward the ball and attempt to gain possession; whichever player gained possession first was allowed to choose possession (as if he had won a coin toss in other leagues). The scramble infamously led to the first XFL injury: Orlando Rage free safety Hassan Shamsid-Deen separated his shoulder in the scramble during the XFL's opening weekend. This injury would keep Shamsid-Deen out for the rest of the season.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

And thanks for reminding me to put in one last 2008 plug for eliminating the last jump ball left over from a different era in time.

Monday night, as the umpire I missed the jumper tip, and then catch the tip. I was too busy watching the eight nonjumpers, but it's still not a good excuse. My partner, the referee, told me that by the time he put the whistle back in his mouth, he thought it was to late, not by rule, but just way too late to call the violation. None of the coaches, players, or fans complained. I will admit that I'm not as familiar with all the jump ball requirements as I was when we were having several jump balls in each game. Again, not a good excuse, but this method of starting a game should be done away with. Dr. Naismith originally had jump balls after every goal, then we progressed to only having jump balls to start periods, and to make the ball live after held ball situations, and now we only have jump balls to start the game, and extra periods. The natural progression is to now do away with all jump balls. We no longer use Dr. Naismith's rule regarding ending the game in a tie, or in sudden death, so why keep his jump ball rule? He is more likely to roll over in his grave due to what NBA players are now allowed to do with their pivot foot, than he is to roll over because we did away with his precious jump ball.

Now, do you want me to tell you what I really think?

Sorry, BM I gotta disagree with you here.

In fact, I hate this suggestion.

APAs take less time than jump ball, so if your concern is that the one jump ball takes more time than a coin toss, then I say that the time difference is measured in under 30 seconds. Hardly worth the change. On the other hand, keeping the jump ball is consistent with other aspects of basketball: height is rewarded for the better chance at rebounds, and therefore the better chance at securing the first possession. But, like any rebound, it doesn't guarantee the first possession.

[26 Year Gap]

I would not go to a coin flip. I would have the visitors have the first inbound.

[shishstripes]

If OT's are a continuation of the 4th qtr and everything is carried over, why not start OT's with APA? I still like starting the game with jump ball. But we have really hijacked this thread with this conversation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

APAs take less time than jump ball, so if your concern is that the one jump ball takes more time than a coin toss, then I say that the time difference is measured in under 30 seconds. Hardly worth the change. On the other hand, keeping the jump ball is consistent with other aspects of basketball: height is rewarded for the better chance at rebounds, and therefore the better chance at securing the first possession. But, like any rebound, it doesn't guarantee the first possession.

The time element doesn't figure into my equation, but you do make an excellent point about the more athletic team having a better, but not 100% chance of getting the first possession. You're right, the jump ball is an important part of basketball, but so was the peach basket, at one time.

My reasons to do away with all jump balls:
1) It's a part of the natural order of rule progression, as stated in my earlier post.
2) With only one jump ball (usually) a game, most coaches don't take the time to understand the jump ball rules.
3) With only one jump ball (usually) a game, coaches don't teach kids the rules about jump balls, because they don't really understand them themselves.
4) With only one jump ball (usually) a game, most players don't understand the rules about jump balls.
5) With only one jump ball (usually) a game, many officials don't practice their jump ball technique as much as we used to back in the good old days, tossing it up and into a hoop over and over again.
6) With only one jump ball (usually) a game, many officials don't spend as much time studying the rules about jump balls, and the jump ball rules are about as complex (before the toss, during the toss, after the tap, jumpers, nonjumpers, on the circle, off the circle, etc.) as rules can be for a situation that lasts only a few seconds (at the most), and happens only once (usually) a game.
7) It will give us a real reason to get the captains and coaches together pregame, instead of the usual players properly equipped, wearing uniforms properly, good sportsmanship, speech that we now give.
8) Other sports start games with a coin toss.

Each reason, individually, is not a good reason to do away with jump balls, but taken together, as a group, I believe that a pretty good argument is presented.

Some of these reasons are really not excusable. Officials should practice tossing, and officials should know the jump ball rules like the back of their hand, but many of us, including me, don't, because it happens only once a game, it's over in a few seconds (tops), and many of us just want to get it over with and get into the flow of the game, hoping that nothing "weird" happens during the jump ball, and if it does, that it's obvious enough for us to recognize the violation, and call it.

How many Forum members, and I know that there are probably several esteemed members out there that can, can actually recite all the jump ball rules, book, chapter, and verse, not only without looking at the rulebook, but who can call all the various jump ball violations in those first few hectic seconds of the game?