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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 05:03pm
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I really don't have anything to say about this situation since it obviously didn't really happen, but was just a bad dream.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 05:04pm
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Nice!!!!!
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 05:29pm
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5 jump balls in a dream

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett View Post
I really don't have anything to say about this situation since it obviously didn't really happen, but was just a bad dream.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 05:34pm
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Now You Know What I Really Think ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee View Post
APAs take less time than jump ball, so if your concern is that the one jump ball takes more time than a coin toss, then I say that the time difference is measured in under 30 seconds. Hardly worth the change. On the other hand, keeping the jump ball is consistent with other aspects of basketball: height is rewarded for the better chance at rebounds, and therefore the better chance at securing the first possession. But, like any rebound, it doesn't guarantee the first possession.
The time element doesn't figure into my equation, but you do make an excellent point about the more athletic team having a better, but not 100% chance of getting the first possession. You're right, the jump ball is an important part of basketball, but so was the peach basket, at one time.

My reasons to do away with all jump balls:
1) It's a part of the natural order of rule progression, as stated in my earlier post.
2) With only one jump ball (usually) a game, most coaches don't take the time to understand the jump ball rules.
3) With only one jump ball (usually) a game, coaches don't teach kids the rules about jump balls, because they don't really understand them themselves.
4) With only one jump ball (usually) a game, most players don't understand the rules about jump balls.
5) With only one jump ball (usually) a game, many officials don't practice their jump ball technique as much as we used to back in the good old days, tossing it up and into a hoop over and over again.
6) With only one jump ball (usually) a game, many officials don't spend as much time studying the rules about jump balls, and the jump ball rules are about as complex (before the toss, during the toss, after the tap, jumpers, nonjumpers, on the circle, off the circle, etc.) as rules can be for a situation that lasts only a few seconds (at the most), and happens only once (usually) a game.
7) It will give us a real reason to get the captains and coaches together pregame, instead of the usual players properly equipped, wearing uniforms properly, good sportsmanship, speech that we now give.
8) Other sports start games with a coin toss.

Each reason, individually, is not a good reason to do away with jump balls, but taken together, as a group, I believe that a pretty good argument is presented.

Some of these reasons are really not excusable. Officials should practice tossing, and officials should know the jump ball rules like the back of their hand, but many of us, including me, don't, because it happens only once a game, it's over in a few seconds (tops), and many of us just want to get it over with and get into the flow of the game, hoping that nothing "weird" happens during the jump ball, and if it does, that it's obvious enough for us to recognize the violation, and call it.

How many Forum members, and I know that there are probably several esteemed members out there that can, can actually recite all the jump ball rules, book, chapter, and verse, not only without looking at the rulebook, but who can call all the various jump ball violations in those first few hectic seconds of the game?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Dec 28, 2008 at 06:20pm.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 07:29pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
8) Other sports start games with a coin toss.

Each reason, individually, is not a good reason to do away with jump balls, but taken together, as a group, I believe that a pretty good argument is presented.
I, for one, would be disappointed if the jump ball was removed from the game. It's a basketball tradition. Over the history of the game, the jump ball has played an integral part. For much of this time, there was a jump after every made basket. No other game has had jump balls. Let them start with a coin toss if they want. Changing this would be like having a coin toss to determine who bats first in a baseball game instead of continuing having the visiting team bat first. There's something to be said for tradition.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 07:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
We should place the ball in the center of the court and have the two teams line up at opposing end lines, and then let them charge for it.

That would increase safety in the game.
Just like the XFL. I remember when they had a player injured during the pregame scrum that replaced the coin toss.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 08:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
6) With only one jump ball (usually) a game, many officials don't spend as much time studying the rules about jump balls, and the jump ball rules are about as complex (before the toss, during the toss, after the tap, jumpers, nonjumpers, on the circle, off the circle, etc.) as rules can be for a situation that lasts only a few seconds (at the most), and happens only once (usually) a game.
Why does this really matter? 99% of the time the ball gets tossed, tapped, and off we go. I know the rules, but even if I didn't would anyone notice?

The only thing we missed (I think) as a crew in the last year was a quick backcourt violation -- and I was the one who tossed the ball and had to ask my partners at halftime why it wasn't gotten. Nobody (including my partners) noticed anything, so I'm left to wonder if I was imagining it.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 08:22pm
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Originally Posted by stmaryrams View Post
Just like the XFL. I remember when they had a player injured during the pregame scrum that replaced the coin toss.
Replacing the coin toss at the beginning of each game was an event in which one player from each team sought to recover a football 20 yards away in order to determine possession. Both players lined up side-by-side on one of the 30-yard lines, with the ball being placed at the 50-yard line. At the whistle, the two players would run toward the ball and attempt to gain possession; whichever player gained possession first was allowed to choose possession (as if he had won a coin toss in other leagues). The scramble infamously led to the first XFL injury: Orlando Rage free safety Hassan Shamsid-Deen separated his shoulder in the scramble during the XFL's opening weekend. This injury would keep Shamsid-Deen out for the rest of the season.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 08:29pm
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"Tradition, tradition! Tradition!" (Fiddler On The Roof)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett View Post
Over the history of the game, the jump ball has played an integral part. For much of this time, there was a jump after every made basket. No other game has had jump balls. Changing this would be like having a coin toss to determine who bats first in a baseball game instead of continuing having the visiting team bat first. There's something to be said for tradition.
Agree. I believe that it's tradition that's keeping the NFHS, and NCAA, from taking the next step and eliminating the jump ball completely.

Wait a minute. You've never have more than one jump ball a game. After you toss an extra period ball, come back and post again on jump balls.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Dec 28, 2008 at 08:33pm.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 08:31pm
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Wait a minute. You've never have more than one jump ball a game. After you toss an extra period ball, come back and post again.
Wait a minute yourself. Is this some kind of a trick to keep me from ever posting again?
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 08:34pm
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Although, Now That I Think About It ???

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Originally Posted by Mark Padgett View Post
Wait a minute yourself. Is this some kind of a trick to keep me from ever posting again?
Sorry. I fixed it.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 08:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett View Post
I, for one, would be disappointed if the jump ball was removed from the game. It's a basketball tradition. Over the history of the game, the jump ball has played an integral part. For much of this time, there was a jump after every made basket. No other game has had jump balls. Let them start with a coin toss if they want. Changing this would be like having a coin toss to determine who bats first in a baseball game instead of continuing having the visiting team bat first. There's something to be said for tradition.
The ball is tipped
and there you are
you're running for your life
you're a shooting star
And all the years
no one knows
just how hard you worked
but now it shows...
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 09:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Agree. I believe that it's tradition that's keeping the NFHS, and NCAA, from taking the next step and eliminating the jump ball completely.

Wait a minute. You've never have more than one jump ball a game. After you toss an extra period ball, come back and post again on jump balls.
Ya... a step backwards!
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 29, 2008, 12:08am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
1) It's a part of the natural order of rule progression, as stated in my earlier post.
Your progression doesn't make much sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
2) With only one jump ball (usually) a game, most coaches don't take the time to understand the jump ball rules.
3) With only one jump ball (usually) a game, coaches don't teach kids the rules about jump balls, because they don't really understand them themselves.
4) With only one jump ball (usually) a game, most players don't understand the rules about jump balls.
And that is different from any other part of the game? Change jump balls to traveling and it would be just as true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
5) With only one jump ball (usually) a game, many officials don't practice their jump ball technique as much as we used to back in the good old days, tossing it up and into a hoop over and over again.
6) With only one jump ball (usually) a game, many officials don't spend as much time studying the rules about jump balls, and the jump ball rules are about as complex (before the toss, during the toss, after the tap, jumpers, nonjumpers, on the circle, off the circle, etc.) as rules can be for a situation that lasts only a few seconds (at the most), and happens only once (usually) a game.
I don't see any problems coming up from either of these reasons. The ball is tossed and that's the end of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
7) It will give us a real reason to get the captains and coaches together pregame, instead of the usual players properly equipped, wearing uniforms properly, good sportsmanship, speech that we now give.
8) Other sports start games with a coin toss.
Neither of these are valid reasons to change anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Each reason, individually, is not a good reason to do away with jump balls, but taken together, as a group, I believe that a pretty good argument is presented.
It's not a good argument to get rid of jump balls because right now there is no real need to fix anything about the jump balls; you are trying to fix a problem which isn't there. It is as if you are in a debate competition and are trying to come up with reasons to support your side of the argument.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 29, 2008, 12:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Had even worse in a JV girls game. Roughly 8:00 with no scoring.
My first game in PA went double overtime (JV girls... any parallels?). Teams were in the double bonus with 5 minutes to go in the 4th quarter and finished regulation tied at 24. Both teams had twelve attempts from the line in the first overtime; we started the second overtime tied at 24.

Sorry for the derail, back to jump balls with this thread!
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