Called player running OOB the other night

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Ooh, that's a game-interrupter. Right?

1) I'm the R.
2) Shut up.

(Oh, wait, that's something else.)

I certainly don't have a clear handle on what's a "violation no matter what", and what's a "game-interrupter". If I did, I would transcribe it for BillyMac to add to one of his lists. One can usually be safe in calling things "by the book", but we all know there's a difference between being a "Rule Book Ronnie" and calling things as accepted. Sometimes that's taking into account the game situation in making calls.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I certainly don't have a clear handle on what's a "violation no matter what", and what's a "game-interrupter". If I did, I would transcribe it for BillyMac to add to one of his lists. One can usually be safe in calling things "by the book", but we all know there's a difference between being a "Rule Book Ronnie" and calling things as accepted. Sometimes that's taking into account the game situation in making calls.

I had a long discussion about this principle the other night with my JV partner. We had just had a rules meeting a couple nights before, and the format of the meeting was basically newer officials asking questions that the Varsity officials could answer. When the JV officials ran out of questions, the Varsity officials just started handing out advice on subjects they deemed relevant.

One very well-respected Varsity official raised his hand and said (paraphrased), “Nine times out of ten, 3 seconds is a crap call and all you JV officials need to know that. You guys have to be talking the players out of the lane and if you have a count that is at 2 or 3 and you have a player in the lane who is either about to receive a pass or has the ball, making a move to the basket, or is making at least an attempt to move out of the lane, you hold your whistle.”

My partner and I both had some qualms about this philosophy. I understand that my association wants me to talk players out of fouls (like handchecking) and violations (like 3 seconds) but I don’t understand the principle of setting aside a rule as a whole just because we don’t want the coaches on our back.

What happens when a coach is paying excellent attention to the other team’s offense and he can clearly see that a player is in the lane for 5 or 6 seconds. Regardless of what actions he is performing, according to the rule, he should have been whistled for a violation. What recourse do I have against a coach who is armed with a knowledge of the rules? I can’t just say “Well, Coach, they told us in our meeting that 3 seconds is a crap call.”

Thoughts?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by fiasco

“Well, Coach, they told us in our meeting that 3 seconds is a crap call.”

Thoughts?

Is 3 seconds a crap call? Nope, there are plenty of players that would love to take advantage of that philosophy, and they would have an unfair advantage not intended by the rules. Is calling 3 seconds while the post player has one foot on the lane line, the other outside the lane, and you just got to 3? Yep, that would be a crap call. By rule, it might be correct, but most officials would say that is not the intent of the rule. Just the mere fact the rules state "Allowance shall be made..." seems to indicate there is leeway in making this call. Do you see an allowance being made for the violation of stepping on a boundary line?

Now, I don't necessarily agree with your V-official who mentioned not to call it if the player is about to receive a pass; the other statements I don't have a big problem with. In fact, making a move towards the basket is one of those allowances, correct? I think what they were perhaps trying to get across is the fact that many new officials seem to over-call this violation, when it's better to see the whole play.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Is 3 seconds a crap call? Nope, there are plenty of players that would love to take advantage of that philosophy, and they would have an unfair advantage not intended by the rules. Is calling 3 seconds while the post player has one foot on the lane line, the other outside the lane, and you just got to 3? Yep, that would be a crap call. By rule, it might be correct, but most officials would say that is not the intent of the rule. Just the mere fact the rules state "Allowance shall be made..." seems to indicate there is leeway in making this call. Do you see an allowance being made for the violation of stepping on a boundary line?

Now, I don't necessarily agree with your V-official who mentioned not to call it if the player is about to receive a pass; the other statements I don't have a big problem with. In fact, making a move towards the basket is one of those allowances, correct? I think what they were perhaps trying to get across is the fact that many new officials seem to over-call this violation, when it's better to see the whole play.

It's still muddy to me. But I'm sure that's what learning to be an official is all about. As the years pass on, the muddy becomes clear.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by fiasco

It's still muddy to me. But I'm sure that's what learning to be an official is all about. As the years pass on, the muddy becomes slightly clearer.

Fixed it for you.

[Juulie Downs]

fiasco, here's my $ .02. The most important thing with anything borderline is to be generally consistent with other refs in your area, so that a player knows ahead of time what to expect. I work in one rec league where we're supposed to call 3 seconds at 3 seconds regardless. Period. Everyone calls it that way and if we don't we get in trouble. In the high school ball I do, I'd get booed off the floor by other refs if I called that way. There's a much broader interpretation of "illegal advantage" as the operative phrase.

I personally would like to see certain rules called differently than they are around here (like 3 seconds!) but I don't have the authority to make that happen, and until it does, I can't just please my own interpretation. If I only do it MY WAY, it's not fair to the players.

Any rule is fair if it's called the same way for both sides, and if all the players know what's going on. It's one of the things that makes regional and state play-off games a little tricky. Refs and players have more adjusting to do.

If you really strongly disagree with the rules, you should lobby hard to change them, or change the interp that';s used. But you can't just do it your way. I think what Scrapper and M&M are saying is that they have adjusted to their level of play in their area and the way they are expected to call things. You sound like the sort of person who can do the same and learn to fit in. THat's the best way to be a good ref. Cooperation.

[M&M Guy]

Well said.

By the way, hi Juulie!

[eyezen]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Now, I don't necessarily agree with your V-official who mentioned not to call it if the player is about to receive a pass; the other statements I don't have a big problem with. In fact, making a move towards the basket is one of those allowances, correct? I think what they were perhaps trying to get across is the fact that many new officials seem to over-call this violation, when it's better to see the whole play.

I concur.

[refnrev]

I totally disagree with your V partners advice. If a player has camped out in the lane, ignored my infamous, "Don't stand in the lane", and now has a pass coming to him/her then he/she has just gained a huge advantage. I usually try to hold the whistle until I'm convinced the player jsu won't hear me telling them to move or when the pass is headed their way.