Inquiring Minds Want To Know ???

BillyMac · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 21, 2008, 10:42pm

The hand is considered part of the ball when the hand is in contact with the ball. This includes holding, dribbling, passing, or even during a shot attempt. Striking a ball handler or a shooter on that player's hand that is incidental to an attempt to play the ball is not a foul.

No problem. Now, get ready for this. Here it comes. A1 is trying to control a rebound and has the ball cupped in one hand. From behind, B1 slaps the back of A1's hand that is in contact with the ball, causing A1's hand to push the ball in such a way that the ball goes out of bounds.

Easy part. No foul on B1. It's incidental contact, as defined above.

Hard part. Who caused the ball to go out of bounds, thus awarding the other team a throwin?

Since the hand is considered part of the ball when the hand is in contact with the ball, didn't B1 actually slap the ball, thus causing the ball, as part of the hand, to go out of bounds, thus awarding the throwin to Team A?

Or, did A1, being the last to actually touch the ball, cause it to go out of bounds, thus awarding the throw to Team B?

I've given you "a topic. Talk amongst yourselves."

tjones1 · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 21, 2008, 11:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Or, did A1, being the last to actually touch the ball, cause it to go out of bounds, thus awarding the throw to Team B?

This is my vote.

Bad Zebra · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 21, 2008, 11:16pm

Wow. How did you come up with this one? Kinda makes my head hurt, but I also vote OB caused by A1. Throw in by B. All the while, Coach A is screaming "Over the back!!!".

BillyMac · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Nov 21, 2008, 11:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

How did you come up with this one? Kinda makes my head hurt.

I overheard some fellow officials discussing it at a Refresher Exam study session a few nights ago. I made my head hurt too, so I chose not to get involved with their discussion at that time, but this interesting situation has been on my mind all week long, so I decided to stir things up on the weekend version of the Forum. I'm a bad boy.

Skarecrow · #5 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 22, 2008, 12:23am

If the hand is part of the ball, B1 struck the hand, thus striking the ball, and he knocked the ball out of bounds...Inbound for Team A. Picture him coming up fast from behind, and striking the "ball" with some force and it goes out of bounds.....Not a hard call there...and the hand is part of the ball....

Skarecrow

jdmara · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 22, 2008, 01:56am

B's ball for the throw-in

-Josh

Camron Rust · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 22, 2008, 02:40am

The hand is only "part of the ball" for the purposes of determining a foul....and is only such when the contact with the hand is incidental to a play on the ball (a defender can't just whack someone's hand just becasue it is on the ball). It has no bearing on who touched the ball.

That said, I'm calling the OOB on B because I'm going to see his pinky finger making a slight brush on the ball as it is being batted away.

Nevadaref · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 22, 2008, 03:42am

I'm following this principle:

7.2.1 SITUATION:

A1 holds the ball near a sideline. B1 is inbounds and bats the ball from the hands of A1 causing it to go out of bounds. RULING: The ball is awarded to Team A as B1 caused it to go out of bounds.

bob jenkins · #9 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 22, 2008, 07:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The hand is considered part of the ball when the hand is in contact with the ball.

Reference, please. And, I know it's legal to make contact with the hand while the hand is in contact with the ball. And, "the hand is part of the ball" is an easy way to remember that. IT doesn't necessarily follow, though, that the saying applies in all situations.

mbyron · #10 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 22, 2008, 08:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Or, did A1, being the last to actually touch the ball, cause it to go out of bounds, thus awarding the throw to Team B?

Being last to touch the ball is neither necessary nor sufficient for causing the ball to go OOB.

zeedonk · #11 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 22, 2008, 09:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron

Being last to touch the ball is neither necessary nor sufficient for causing the ball to go OOB.

I like this, because it now creates an additional question (the law of unintended consequences):

What if A1 looses the ball and its going OOB. As the loose ball flies past B1, he instinctively sticks his hand out for the ball and it grazes off his fingertips and OOB. Did B1 cause the ball to go OOB or did A1?

And for what its worth, I hate the "hand is part of the ball" rule- To me, there is something inherently wrong about the rule allowing a player to smack another players hand on a shot or pass and having no call... I know,it's a rule, but it doesn't mean I have to like it....

Z

mj · #12 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 22, 2008, 09:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That said, I'm calling the OOB on B because I'm going to see his pinky finger making a slight brush on the ball as it is being batted away.

What he said.

BillyMac · #13 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 22, 2008, 10:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That said, I'm calling the OOB on B because I'm going to see his pinky finger making a slight brush on the ball as it is being batted away.

Nice try, but I'm not letting you get away with that. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.00.

BillyMac · #14 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 22, 2008, 10:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Reference, please. And, I know it's legal to make contact with the hand while the hand is in contact with the ball. And, "the hand is part of the ball" is an easy way to remember that. IT doesn't necessarily follow, though, that the saying applies in all situations.

You're right. Sorry. I was being lazy, and took the statement from the Misunderstood Rules list, which, by intention, doesn't always use rulebook language.

NFHS 4-24-2: It is legal use of hands to reach to block or slap the ball controlled by a dribbler or a player throwing for goal or a player holding it and accidentally hitting the hand of the opponent when it is in contact with the ball.

This makes my original post question null and void. The hand is not considered part of the ball. This now becomes easy. Any third grader knows the answer. A1 was the last to touch the ball, causing it to go out of bounds, thus awarding the throwin to Team B.

Thanks bob jenkins. Great catch. Forum members, I'm sorry that I wasted your time. I knew there was a reason why I should not have gotten involved with this to begin with. I should have stuck with my gut instinct. I won't delete this post. I'll leave it as a testimonial for those who forget that the NFHS Rulebook is our Bible, our Śruti, our Qur’an, our Tanakh, our Pāli Canon, etc. There are no shortcuts in rules interpretation.

As the keeper of the Misunderstood Rules list, I will consider making a change to this misunderstood rule. Isn't it ironic. The keeper of the Misunderstood Rules list, misunderstood a rule, that was on the list. Color me Idiot. Boy, do I feel foolish? Maybe I'll post an image, or two, to cheer myself up?