spirit of the rule

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

So at what point are you going to make this call?

This is a very fair question. I can't give you an exact distance from the ball at which I'll call it. It's more like three seconds and borderline palming. I'll call it when it produces an advantage, I'll call it early in the game to clean it up, I'll continue to call it as long as the kid continues to do it. But the first time in the game I call this will not be with < 1 minute to go when the ball is 70' away and there is no discernible advantage.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

What if all four teammates of A1, who is dribbling in the backcourt, are running OOB along the far endline?

Okay, I am probably going to call it in this case. This would be the "call the obvious" portion of "call the obvious; call what matters".

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I know that is carrying it to an extreme, but the point remains the same. The offensive team is definitely committing a violation.

Yep. And it's also a violation if the high post has his heel on the FT line for 3.1 seconds.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You seem to be looking for a reason to justify making this call. I think that is the wrong approach. Shouldn't one come at it from the opposite direction, and seek justification for not calling the clearly defined violation?

It may seem that way. But I'm actually very much of the mindset that a violation is a violation, however there are times and situations where calling a violation is just not an intelligent application of the rules. So I guess you could categorize my "philosophy" as call all violations that occur except in those fairly rare situations where it would make the game worse to do so. This sitch, IMHO, is one of those cases.

So let me ask you this...do you call every three seconds you see? Will you call it when it's the post player with his heel on the far lane line while the PG is trapped at mid court? Do you call borderline palms on the PG bringing the ball up court all by himself? Do you strictly call every travel, even the borderline ones when the receiver of a pass is still adjusting his feet when he gets the ball? Do you call a lane violation every time an inch of somebody's toe breaks the plane 1/2 second early? Do you call every instance of every violation every time no matter what? I don't believe you do. None of us call every one every time.

So your original question is an important one; at what point do we call a violation that is very much unrelated to the game? And I'd like to pose that question back to you. I've explained some of the common criteria I apply. I very much respect your opinion, even if I don't always agree with it. So I ask you: What criteria do you apply? I'd like to know.

[chartrusepengui]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle
From the "preamble" to NFHS Rule 1:

"Therefore, it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player or a team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not intended by a rule."

To those arguing for a whistle here, how would you answer the following questions?

1. Can you clearly explain the advantage our little lost lamb gained?
2. Can you clearly explain the disadvantage the other team was placed at?
3. Would other reasonable, knowledgeable, and objective people consider this an intelligent application of the rules?

1. The little lost lamb could have been "found" by A1 and received a long pass negating the pressure and count in the backcourt by intentionally going OB to get open.
2. If this clearly illegal action is allowed without a whistle, then team B behind by two points with time running out is denied an opportunity to score to tie or even win the game. Yes, it was away from the ball - but we call fouls away from the ball all the time and work hard not to "follow" the ball all the time.
3. Absolutely,reasonable, knowledgeable and objective people would consider this to be an intelligent application of the rules, those with other agendas would not.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

1. The little lost lamb could have been "found" by A1 and received a long pass negating the pressure and count in the backcourt by intentionally going OB to get open.
2. If this clearly illegal action is allowed without a whistle, then team B behind by two points with time running out is denied an opportunity to score to tie or even win the game. Yes, it was away from the ball - but we call fouls away from the ball all the time and work hard not to "follow" the ball all the time.
3. Absolutely,reasonable, knowledgeable and objective people would consider this to be an intelligent application of the rules, those with other agendas would not.

#1..."Could" have been found? But he wasn't and A1 wasn't trying to find him there.
#2...By that argument, a bump of the bodies where B5 had LGP on A5 while A5 was cutting through the lane but pass also denies team B the same thing.
#3....what agendas? My agenda is to properly call the game in front of me, not some rigid, never-intened, distortion of the game.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

1. The little lost lamb could have been "found" by A1 and received a long pass negating the pressure and count in the backcourt by intentionally going OB to get open.

"Could have" is not the same as did. Did would be an advantage; "could have" is not. IF that happens, blow the whistle. I would.

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

2. If this clearly illegal action is allowed without a whistle, then team B behind by two points with time running out is denied an opportunity to score to tie or even win the game. Yes, it was away from the ball - but we call fouls away from the ball all the time and work hard not to "follow" the ball all the time.

The "balance of play" the rules seek for is between the two teams; it does not include us. Arguing a team was disadvantaged because we didn't give them the ball when we could have is like telling your boss you were late for work because the police didn't give you an escort when they could have.

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

3. Absolutely, reasonable, knowledgeable and objective people would consider this to be an intelligent application of the rules, those with other agendas would not.

The reasonable, knowledgeable, and objective people here seem split on the issue. So you are right, some would. I do not. I don't see making this call, based on the description in the OP, serving the game.

[eyezen]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

3. Absolutely,reasonable, knowledgeable and objective people would consider this to be an intelligent application of the rules, those with other agendas would not.

Count me as unreasonable, unknowledgable, unobjective, unintelligent and having an agenda because I am not calling this as described OP.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

3. Absolutely,reasonable, knowledgeable and objective people would consider this to be an intelligent application of the rules, those with other agendas would not.

As I've said, I would never throw an official under the bus for making this call. That said, this may be the single most condescending thing written here in a long time.

[BillyMac]

Last season, an offensive player avoids a screen by going out of bounds along the endline, almost knocking over my partner, who was the lead. He calls a violation on the offensive player for leaving the court. The funny thing is that a few minutes before this, when I was the lead, the same thing happened to me, by the same team, and I said to myself, without discussing it with my partner, "If this happens again, I'm calling the violation". First, and only time, I've seen this violation called, and I have no problem with the call. It was an obvious advantage not intended by the rules.

[daveg144]

I am also not calling it as the play is originally described. Like others have said, if he receives a pass right after he steps in bounds, I blow the whistle.

It's hard to judge intent.

That being said, if I've seen the same thing earlier in the game and either ignored it or said something to the player/coach and they do it again right at the end (as described in the original play), I'll blow the whistle right away.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by daveg144

That being said, if I've seen the same thing earlier in the game and either ignored it or said something to the player/coach and they do it again right at the end (as described in the original play), I'll blow the whistle right away.

If you'd warned them, I can see it.

If you ignored it, I disagree.

[jdmara]

In discussions like these, I would love to post a poll to see who would call it without knowledge of ball location or would would take the Advantage/Disadvantage approach....Darn computers are keeping us down since you have to start the thread with a poll, it cannot be added

-Josh

[JugglingReferee]

As luck would have it, I had this play last night's in a men's league game.

Now, it is the D division, which means that these just just want a reason to be away from their wives for 2 hours... However, an offensive player went OB in his frontcourt, by accident, and not a lot OB, while trying to get into position for the ball carrier who was in the backcourt. There was no pass imminent, and the defender didn't lose any ground or anything.

I had no whistle.

[BBall_Junkie]

Nevada,

Do you call three seconds on the post man who has his heel on the lane line and the ball is at or near mid court?

I hope so because that is what the rule says....

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

As luck would have it, I had this play last night's in a men's league game.

Now, it is the D division, which means that these just just want a reason to be away from their wives for 2 hours... However, an offensive player went OB in his frontcourt, by accident, and not a lot OB, while trying to get into position for the ball carrier who was in the backcourt. There was no pass imminent, and the defender didn't lose any ground or anything.

I had no whistle.

Juggler, Were you calling FIBA rules? Its a no call in FIBA anyway unless it is Intentionally Deceptive. Then its only a warning or directly going to a Technical. That was a interpretation I received last year from Paul Deshaies.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

Juggler, Were you calling FIBA rules? Its a no call in FIBA anyway unless it is Intentionally Deceptive. Then its only a warning or directly going to a Technical. That was a interpretation I received last year from Paul Deshaies.

I wish! FIBA is far better than Fed, imo. But the men's leagues still use Fed rules. Sigh...

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

It may seem that way. But I'm actually very much of the mindset that a violation is a violation, however there are times and situations where calling a violation is just not an intelligent application of the rules. So I guess you could categorize my "philosophy" as call all violations that occur except in those fairly rare situations where it would make the game worse to do so. This sitch, IMHO, is one of those cases.
...snip...

So your original question is an important one; at what point do we call a violation that is very much unrelated to the game? And I'd like to pose that question back to you. I've explained some of the common criteria I apply. I very much respect your opinion, even if I don't always agree with it. So I ask you: What criteria do you apply? I'd like to know.

It seems that Camron and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum and have little chance of finding any middle ground for agreement. That's okay though. He will do what brings him success and I will strive to do the same. We disagree on this point as strongly as possible, but as a fellow official I wish him well.

However, BITS, it seems that you and I have grounds for discussion. So I will attempt to respond to your questions and points in the best way that I can. Perhaps you will be persuaded by my reasoning, but perhaps you will conclude that handling these situations in a different manner is best. Whatever conclusion you come to, I wish you the best.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

So let me ask you this...do you call every three seconds you see? Will you call it when it's the post player with his heel on the far lane line while the PG is trapped at mid court? Do you call borderline palms on the PG bringing the ball up court all by himself? Do you strictly call every travel, even the borderline ones when the receiver of a pass is still adjusting his feet when he gets the ball? Do you call a lane violation every time an inch of somebody's toe breaks the plane 1/2 second early? Do you call every instance of every violation every time no matter what? I don't believe you do. None of us call every one every time.

My answer to every question is no. Like you said, you already knew that. So what makes this play different?
It seems to me that there are two solid reasons that the situation in the OP needs to be called and the examples which you have provided above can be ignored.

1. As I have already posted, the NFHS has specifically stressed in past POEs and rule comments that leaving the court has become a problem and has directed the officials to make this call. They have even gone so far as to lessen the penalty in an attempt to encourage officials make a violation call for this and ensure that players remain inbounds during play. The NFHS even commented that coaches benefit the game by teaching their players to stay inbounds. Clearly the NFHS believes that this call enforces a principle (stay inbounds) that is for the betterment of the HS game. Therefore, ignoring this directive would seem to be a disservice to the game.

2. Running OOB/leaving the court is an obvious violation that everyone can see. There is a line painted on the floor and it is clear whether a player crossed it or not. This is something which can be objectively seen on video. By contrast all of the examples which you have posed above are subjective.

a. No one is keeping an individual clock on a player in the lane. There is no red light above his head that goes off when he has been in there too long. An official may not have been observing him right when he entered or may not be focused upon him due to more important action nearby. Also there is an allowance for a player who is making a move towards goal to remain in the lane for longer than the allotted three seconds. So three seconds is clearly not black and white.

b. Palming is clearly a judgment call by the official. Did the ball come to rest? Was the player's hand located to the side or on the underside? Does the hand location matter? No observer can say with 100% certainty that a violation did or did not occur here. It is a matter of opinion.

c. IMO Traveling is one of the most difficult calls in basketball (along with BI). Clearly seeing the timing of the catch, picking up the pivot, continuing to observe it during defensive pressure, and the all of that taking place while the players are moving rapidly up and down the court is tough. To top it off most spectators don't know the rules on traveling and think that actions which aren't violations are illegal. Having great certainty in a travel call is not easy. It is certainly possible and some are obvious, but many are not. I think that this is what allows some travels to be passed on without a negative impact upon the game.

d. With lane violations timing is everything. Some players are very good at timing their entry. The difficulty lies in the official having to observe two different things at once. The foot of the player in the marked the lane-space breaking the plane and the ball striking the ring or backboard. Is is really possible for a human to do that with great accuracy? Sure one can pause a video of the action and determine which happened first, but if it is that close, then one is not calling the obvious.

All of that said, I have been more mindful of traveling, palming, and lane violations since the NFHS made them each POEs last season. While I've tried to focus harder on these aspects of the game and properly penalize these violations when I see them, judgment is still required and they certainly cannot be classified as black and white like the crossing of a line on the court.

I really don't believe that adv/disadv is a concern with this play.
It seems that the NFHS has taken the stance that just as in the case of a thrower stepping over the line, no judgment is required here and a violation should simply be called, regardless of the position of the defense. I see this play ruling as having great similarity to the situation posed in the OP.

9.2.5 SITUATION: Thrower A1 inadvertently steps through the plane of the boundary line and touches the court inbounds. A1 immediately steps back into normal out-of-bounds throw-in position. The contact with the court was during a situation: (a) with; or (b) without defensive pressure on the throw-in team. RULING: A violation in both (a) and (b). COMMENT: Whether or not there was defensive pressure or whether or not stepping on the court was inadvertent, it is a violation and no judgment is required in making the call.

Anyway, I hope that provides clarification of my position and gives you something to consider.