Spirit of the rules

JRutledge · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 07, 2001, 06:31pm

I have one we can all talk about.

During the West Coast Conference Tournament Championship, Gonzaga was playing Santa Clara (I believe but not 100% sure) a few nights ago. With about 2 seconds on the clock Santa Clara was down by 3 points and had the ball. Of course Santa Clara needed a 3 to send the game into overtime and had the ball at half court.

I just wanted to set the picture for you because all is not terribly important. Santa Clara did not convert the 3 point attempt and Gonzaga won the game and a bid to the NCAA tournament. Right after it was clear that Gonzaga won, one of the players on the court from Gonzaga jumped up on the rim and pulled himself up and was hanging on the rim. I have no clue if the officials saw this or if anything would have been done by them anyway. But my question to everyone, according to at least NF rules, you could legally call a T but not shoot the FT's because it would not affect the outcome of the game. But if the point total was 2 or less, would any of you here call a T if you saw it, or would you ignore it and why?

SCBroncos · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 07, 2001, 08:33pm

I saw the same thing at the end of that game and being a bronco alum (hence SCBroncos) I immediately shouted T HIM UP!!!!

Now, away from my partiality, since the officials were still on the confines of the court, they do still have jurisdiction. There is no way, however, that I would ever "allow" myself to "see" this happening. I would be sure my back was turned and I was high tailing it out of there...it might be different if the player was trying to taunt or show major disrespect for the other team, but in this case, I think the kid was just really excited - and he should have been becuase the Broncos had that game and blew it...it must have been the refs fault...

Brian Watson · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 07, 2001, 09:20pm

I guess by rule you could but why? The game is over, why go looking for trouble? Unless someone from either team comes after you, don't "see" anything that would require you to clear the floor, bring both teams back, and shoot free throws.

BigDave · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 07, 2001, 10:03pm

In that situation, Rut, I would make sure I didn't see a thing...

The game was settled between the lines. Leave it at that.

#5 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 08, 2001, 03:35pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BigDave
In that situation, Rut, I would make sure I didn't see a thing...

The game was settled between the lines. Leave it at that.

I agree that the game is done, why look for trouble. Besides I'm running for the lockerroom as soon as the final horn goes off, "I think I would have liked to get a better look at that one coach."

rainmaker · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 08, 2001, 04:48pm

Rut--

I did hear about a game here in the Portland area (hs jv boys) where a ref did call this. And it did affect the outcome of the game. And he got "promoted" for it. The story is that the team that won by 4 had been really difficult throughout the game. As soon as the buzzer went, they headed for the locker room, and each player jumped up and chinned up to the rim, and then dropped and ran, and let the next one "go" and so on. The officials hadn't even started off the court yet. They called it on three players, the other team made five of six free throws and won the game. Our commissioner was so impressed, that he named it the "call of the year."

--juulie

Mark Dexter · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 08, 2001, 05:11pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
The officials hadn't even started off the court yet. They called it on three players, the other team made five of six free throws and won the game. Our commissioner was so impressed, that he named it the "call of the year."

--juulie

Might not know this (hindsight is 20/20), but assuming the other team hadn't made 5 of the FT's, would the officials have called more T's until one had been assessed to each player? (Kinda like don't shoot the FT's if it doesn't make a difference)

Also, I think there was a thread like this with an intramural college game - would 5-6-4 come into play? I.e. once four points have been reached, you have a tie game, and you start the OT with FT's? Or if you have a T, do you shoot both (all) shots and see if the losing team comes ahead?

Brian Watson · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 09, 2001, 09:39am

OT would not be declared/required (not sure what word to use, but you get my point) unless all 6 of the tosses were made, and the score was tied (remember they would be part of the fourth quarter, and the quarter would not end until all related action was over).

I would assume of the 6, you would only shoot what was needed to give the shooting team the victory. So if they were down 4 and hit the first 5, games over and run like hell.

Hawks Coach · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 09, 2001, 11:12am

Post-game celebration T for a big tournament victory? Are we going to T everyone up who cuts a strand from the net they take home? I think that the dancing on the table thing could also be excessive celebration, and that goes on after every big (and not so big) regular season win with no Ts.

I find the thought of "T"ing a team for this ridiculous, and I think that rainmaker's example is the blown call of the year. Get out and let them have their celebration. Why on earth would you want to T people up for a celebration after the game is over? If they break the rim or the backboard, send them a bill.

Dan_ref · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 09, 2001, 11:45am

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Post-game celebration T for a big tournament victory? Are we going to T everyone up who cuts a strand from the net they take home? ... Why on earth would you want to T people up for a celebration after the game is over? If they break the rim or the backboard, send them a bill.

Coach, the point here is that almost always the post game
celebration is after the refs leave the floor. If these
players can't wait the 10 seconds for the refs to leave
the building then they certainly deserve what they got.
Each of them knows, or should have known, what the rule is
concerning this behavior. This was a great call.

Brian Watson · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 09, 2001, 12:17pm

It is still taunting whether the game is at :01 or :00.

rainmaker · #12 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 10, 2001, 11:31pm

Hawks Coach --
When I first heard this story, it was told as though the commissioner was mad, and he was being sarcastic when he named it call of the year. Later I learned that he actually was impressed. He thought it was a good call because the team had already gotten a couple of T's for taunting, and they were rubbing it in. It also happened so soon after the game was over that he thought it was part of the action of the game. The ref only called three T's because that was all the guys that got up to the rim before he blew the whistle. I don't know whether I agree or not, I was just telling this story since it sort of relates.

Rick82358 · #13 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 10, 2001, 11:41pm

That was a great call and the right call. The coach needs to do his job and teach the kids what sportsmanship is. Taunting is a tech, if you do in before the game, durring, or after. But face it how many of us would actually make that call? I honestly think that I probably "wouldn't see anything" either.
But think about it,isn't that the same thing as not makeing a call to effect the outcome of a game? I have taken a lot of grief over the years for blowing the whistle in the last minute of close games, or as one fan said, " ...made the ultimate mistake of an official and took the game out of the hands of the players."

Hawks Coach · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 12, 2001, 05:08pm

I agree with your philosophy on sportsmanship and taunting, and would never allow my team to engage in such behavior. I am also troubled by the lack of sportsmanship displayed in many games. And not having been at the game rainmaker cites, I will not pass judgment on that particular decision - have to see it to evaluate it.

But in response to Rick, I see passing on this type of "post-game" call as being fundamentally different from swallowing the whistle at the end of a game. In the latter case (whistle-swallower), you are allowing people to break rules and gain unfair advantages that may allow them to win the game undeservedly.

In the post-game taunting case, the horn has blown and the game already has an outcome (and don't recite the rules, I realize the officials have to say it is final before it is!). In many cases, you have hundreds of fans celebrating a victory with their players, many of whom be overly exuberent and unsporting in their post-game celebration. I know you have the right to call Ts until you leave the floor, but the game is over and was decided between the lines. IMHO, after the horn, the taunting would have to be of the "in the face" variety to merit a call that would change the outcome of a "finished" contest. An excessively belligerent player or coach would also qualify for a potentially game-altering T after the horn. But this is about the most extreme of calls short of a forfeit. Tread carefully.

Rick82358 · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 13, 2001, 08:22am

I agree that the situations are different. But my point is that some officials put the whisle away about two minutes before the game horn sounds and that is wrong, as your evaluation says.
The end of the game in my mind is when the horn blows unless the table is calling me due to error, Which I hope we took care of before the horn. Or a coach is following me off the floor with some interesting verbage for my self or partner.
The spirit of the rule is important and I think gets lost somewhat on younger officials who are not really students of the game.
But it sounds like you are the type of coach that I would like to work your game. I so enjoy working with Kids who are well coached in both the game and sportsmanship.
Good luck!