Over and back, or not?

[echo]

I recently had a game and need some help on a call. A1 shoots the ball from under the board. B1 blocks the ball and A1 saves it from going out of bounds. In doing so, A1 scoops the ball and it flies to the division line causing A2 to do the same. A2 scoops the ball causing it to go backcourt to the other division line at which time A3 gains control and dribbles back to try again. Coach B is yelling backcourt.
My partner and I didn't call backcourt because we felt no player had gained control of the ball and all were just trying to keep the ball in play. During a dead ball we asked another ref, who was in the stands, her take on the call. She said we missed the call since it is the last player to touch the ball. Since A2 was the last to touch it, it should have been an over and back call. IF, B2 had last touched it, before it went over the line, it was a good no call.
Did we miss the call?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by echo
I recently had a game and need some help on a call. A1 shoots the ball from under the board. B1 blocks the ball and A1 saves it from going out of bounds. In doing so, A1 scoops the ball and it flies to the division line causing A2 to do the same. A2 scoops the ball causing it to go backcourt to the other division line at which time A3 gains control and dribbles back to try again. Coach B is yelling backcourt.
My partner and I didn't call backcourt because we felt no player had gained control of the ball and all were just trying to keep the ball in play. During a dead ball we asked another ref, who was in the stands, her take on the call. She said we missed the call since it is the last player to touch the ball. Since A2 was the last to touch it, it should have been an over and back call. IF, B2 had last touched it, before it went over the line, it was a good no call.
Did we miss the call?

What kind of court has more than one division line (that's effective at any given time -- I know some small courts have on line for going forward, another for going back)?

That said, if you judged any of A's "scoops" to be passes, then there was player (and, thus, team) control and you could have a backcourt violation. If you just judged that it was "batting" then you wouldn't have a violation.

[Andy]

If I am interpreting what you wrote correctly, it sounds like you had the right call. I will qualify that with a HTBT.

I am reading that you had a shot attempt by A1 and a block of that attempt by B1. At this point there is no team control. As the blocked ball is heading out of bounds, A1 attempts to "save" the ball back in bounds by flinging it back toward in bounds. The ball sails out toward the division line, where it is touched, but not controlled, by A2. The ball then goes into the backcourt, where it is retrieved by A3.

If you judge that A1 and A2 DID NOT control the ball in either of their touches after the blocked shot, there can be no backcourt violation because there is no team control.

If you judge that A1 and/or A2 controlled the ball before scooping, flinging, etc., team control has been established by team A and there is a backcourt violation assuming that a team B player did not touch the ball.

[Mark Padgett]

As the other posts indicated, the operative issue here is whether there was team control after the shot attempt. During a period of no team control, team control is established when a player establishes player control. Player control is defined as holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds.

If you felt that either A1 or A2 held the ball at any time, then there was player control, hence team control, hence a violation. If not, then no violation because team control was never established.

Only you and your partner were there. Did either player hold the ball or not. You must make a split second decision. Your answer cannot be he "sort of" held it. This is one of those black or white situations that allows no gray.

This is why we get the big bucks.

[BktBallRef]

I agree with the other three posters.

If the ball was batted by A1 and A2, then you don't have team control.

If the ball came to rest in either's hands, then you have team control. And that's true whether the ball was then fumbled or passed. Your use of the word "scoops" tends to make me believe that the ball was held. Unless both A1 and A2 batted the ball, I think you have team control.

[echo]

Thanks for the responses. I missed the call.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

From your description, I don't think you missed it. Definitely a HTBT. Maybe ask yourself this: If the player would've requested a timeout while contacting the ball in the way they did in your play, would you have granted it? Same principle, but maybe that will help you sort it out!

[BktBallRef]

PA Coach, I think he's saying that the ball was held.

echo, don't worry about. Making mistakes is one of the ways that we learn. I bet you don't miss it next time.

[dblref]

O.K. This one eludes me. What is "HTBT".

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by dblref
O.K. This one eludes me. What is "HTBT".

Had To Be There

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by echo
Thanks for the responses. I missed the call.

You're you're welcome welcome echo echo.

Sorry - somebody had to be the first.

[rpirtle]

[/B][/QUOTE]

What kind of court has more than one division line (that's effective at any given time -- I know some small courts have on line for going forward, another for going back)?

That said, if you judged any of A's "scoops" to be passes, then there was player (and, thus, team) control and you could have a backcourt violation. If you just judged that it was "batting" then you wouldn't have a violation. [/B][/QUOTE]

Am I missing something? It has been a really long day so bear with me guys. I'm probably either reading the original post wrong or I am temporarily (or not-so-temporarily) having a mental block.

What does player control or team control have to do with a backcourt violation if the ball has already attained frontcourt status? If the ball has reached frontcourt status, it doesn't have to attain frontcourt status again after Team A shoots the ball. It does not matter if Player A's play was a scoop or a catch and throw. It is my understanding that if any player from Team A is the last to touch the ball prior to it going into the backcourt and a member of Team A is then the first to touch the ball in the backcourt, it is a violation. Isn't it??? I'm so confused...someone please put me out of my misery.

[rcwilco]

you need front court status, team control, last touched and first touched. If you go back through previous posts you will find some excellent insights and info on backcourt that will answer your question in much greater detail. Also the NF case book has some good examples.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by rpirtle

What kind of court has more than one division line (that's effective at any given time -- I know some small courts have on line for going forward, another for going back)?

That said, if you judged any of A's "scoops" to be passes, then there was player (and, thus, team) control and you could have a backcourt violation. If you just judged that it was "batting" then you wouldn't have a violation. [/B][/QUOTE]

Am I missing something? It has been a really long day so bear with me guys. I'm probably either reading the original post wrong or I am temporarily (or not-so-temporarily) having a mental block.

What does player control or team control have to do with a backcourt violation if the ball has already attained frontcourt status? If the ball has reached frontcourt status, it doesn't have to attain frontcourt status again after Team A shoots the ball. It does not matter if Player A's play was a scoop or a catch and throw. It is my understanding that if any player from Team A is the last to touch the ball prior to it going into the backcourt and a member of Team A is then the first to touch the ball in the backcourt, it is a violation. Isn't it??? I'm so confused...someone please put me out of my misery. [/B][/QUOTE]

There must be team control to have a BC violation. In this play, a shot has been taken, so team control has ended. There is no TC until a player gains control by holding or dribbling the ball. The question in the play is whether A1 or A2 actually held the ball. It's not a BC violation simply because A1 or A2 touched the ball in the FC and A3 touched it in the BC.

[rpirtle]

Originally posted by rcwilco
you need front court status, team control, last touched and first touched. If you go back through previous posts you will find some excellent insights and info on backcourt that will answer your question in much greater detail. Also the NF case book has some good examples.

I appreciate the response. So, hypothetically speaking....Team A shoots the ball (ball has frontcourt status but now player and team control has ended), a player from team A tries to rebound but instead swipes ball into backcourt (last touched), and another player from Team A could retrieve the ball in the backcourt (first touched) and there is no violation. (Assumption: No player from Team B ever touches the ball.)

Is this true? I know it's not very likely...just stretching the example to get the concept clearer to myself. Thanks again all!