Tossing a coach with no T's

[Self]

This question is for HS ball but I was told by college official that you can toss a coach without giving him a T. He said he wanted to get rif of the coach, but not penalize the players. Can you toss a coach with no T's? I no you can toss him with only one T or on the second T, but I didn't think you could with no T's.....

Please let me know rule or case if you can... Thanks..

[Brian Watson]

With out the book in front of me to see exactly how it is worded, I assume you could disqualify and eject any player or coach with out issuing a T. The other coach might be a little upset over that, but you technically (no pun intended) could do it.

I see the rule as this...The ejection levels for T's are just that, they are the penalty if you accrue that many T's. An ejection is not directly tied only to having a T issued. They are separate items, unless you get too many T's.

[zebraman]

By rule, I think the only way you could eject a coach without 2 direct technical fouls or 3 indirect technical fouls would be by calling a flagrant technical foul on the coach. I've never seen that happen.

Can you help me envision what a coach would do that would be even worse behavior than a flagrant "T" thereby necessitating ejection without a T?

Z

[Bart Tyson]

I agree with Z. I don't think a supervisor would ever support an ejection w/o a T. To answer the question, yes, but only b/c the official has all control of the game. An official can do many things involving a game, but there could be hell to pay later.

[Mark Padgett]

Here's why I don't think under NF rules that you could toss a coach without issuing a technical. Although NF rule 2-8-2 says "The officials shall: Penalize and disqualify the offender if flagrant misconduct occurs." - and there is no specific definition of "flagrant misconduct" as it relates to technical fouls, NF rule 10-4-1 covers all the specific ways bench personnel can behave to receive a technical. I can't think of anything not listed that would result in wanting to toss a coach, therefore all the bad behavior I would want to penalize is in the technical foul rule.

Now you see why I never became a lawyer.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Self
This question is for HS ball but I was told by college official that you can toss a coach without giving him a T. He said he wanted to get rif of the coach, but not penalize the players. Can you toss a coach with no T's? I no you can toss him with only one T or on the second T, but I didn't think you could with no T's.....

Hmmmm, some of these college officials amaze me with their "thinking."

[Edited by BktBallRef on May 10th, 2002 at 11:19 PM]

[Mark Dexter]

A coach must be charged with either 1 flagrant T, 2 directs, or 3 indirects (or the appropriate combinations thereof) to be ejected (in NCAA terminology) or to be thrown out of the game.

To simply remove a coach with no penalty to the players is certainly a generous, noble thought, but it flies against the rules. Besides, the coach is part of the team as well, and his behavior must reflect on the team.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Yes, you can remove a coach or assistant coach without assessing any technical fouls.

During the 1998 AAU Boys' 13U/14U N.I.T. my partner and I had a game where one of the assistant coaches was the father of one of the players. Early in the third quarter the assistant coach's son throw the ball out-of-bounds. The head coach was not happy with the player's pass and took the boy out of the game. As the player (age 13) approached the team bench, his father grabbed him by the shoulders, picked his son up off of the floor and throw him onto the bench. My partner (a minister) and I saw this and we immediately stopped the game and told the father/assistant coach that he had to leave the building. He asked us how we could make him leave the buildiing without charging him with a technical foul. We told him that we did not have to charge him with a technical foul, we just did not want him in the building anymore. He was not happy but he left, but he was back in the gym within five minutes with the site manager. The site manager wanted to know what happened. We told him what happened and he told the father assistant coach to get of the building pronto.

[ChuckElias]

Mark, just 'cuz you did it, doesn't mean it was supported by the rules. Maybe it is supported by the rules, but your anecdotal evidence from your partner's actions in one game (an AAU game, no less) 4 years ago doesn't give me the confidence to do the same thing.

Chuck

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Mark, just 'cuz you did it, doesn't mean it was supported by the rules. Maybe it is supported by the rules, but your anecdotal evidence from your partner's actions in one game (an AAU game, no less) 4 years ago doesn't give me the confidence to do the same thing.

Chuck

It is most certainly covered in the rules:

NFHS: Referee's Authority: Rule 2, Section 3: The referee shall make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules.

NCAA: Elastic Power: Rule 2, Section 3, Article 1: The referee shall be empowered to make decisions on any point not covered in the rules.

FIBA: Referee: Powers: Rule 3, Article 6.9: The referee shall have the power to make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules.

NBA: Elastcic Powers: Rule 2, Section III: The officials shall have the power to make decisions on any point not specifically covered in the rules. The Basketball Operations Department will be advised of all such decisions at the earliest possible moment.

WNBA: Elastic Powers: Rule 2, Section III: The officials shall have the power to make decisions on any point not specifically covered in the rules. The Basketball Operations Department will be advised of all such decisions at the earliest possible moment.


Its funny how all of the major rules codes are alike on a seemingly minor section of the rules, including the rule number and section number (except FIBA).

Nonetheless, I cannot fathom a better example of an official using this power than my real life example in my earlier posting. I will say, that this is the only time (knock on wood) that I have ever been involved in a situation that was not specifically covered in the rules.

And if this situation were to happen in a high school or jr. high school game I would not hesitate to do what we did in the AAU game. I think it was the correct decision then and it would be the correct decision if it happened again. It might be a hard sell at the college level and I think that the only situation at the college level I would try it is if a male coach were to do it to a female player. If a male coach tried to do it to a male player the player just might hit him back.

[ChuckElias]

Mark, how is ejection of a coach not specifically covered in the rules? Seems pretty well covered. A coach is ejected for one flagrant T, or 2 direct T's, or any combination of direct and indirect T's that adds up to 3.

I'm not sure why 2-3 applies here.

Chuck

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Mark, how is ejection of a coach not specifically covered in the rules? Seems pretty well covered. A coach is ejected for one flagrant T, or 2 direct T's, or any combination of direct and indirect T's that adds up to 3.

I'm not sure why 2-3 applies here.

Chuck

Our situation in the AAU tournament was perfect example of using the elastic clause. I cannot comment on the NBA/WNBA rules, but everything in the rules (NFHS/NCAA and FIBA) concerning the conduct of the coaches deals with the coach's actions toward his opponents or the game officials. An official would be hard pressed to charge a coach with a technical foul for doing what the assistant coach did in our AAU game.

As the father of two sons (age 9 and 12) I would not allow my children to be coached by a person like that. His conduct could not fit the description of something that is not specifically covered the the rules. It is my opinion, that the NCAA, NFHS, or any StateHSAA would be hard pressed not to support an official, who faced with the situation that we had in that AAU game, in the making the same decision that we made that day. It would have served no purpose to charge the assistant coach with a flagrant foul thereby giving his team's opponent two free throws and the ball. It was the best thing for the game to just have him removed from the facility.

The reality of the situation was that the assistant coach's actions would probably be considered felony child abuse, and I do not know about you, but I do not want my children being coached by a child abuser.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I need to correct the grammer of the second sentence of the second paragraph of my last post. It should read as follows:

His conduct fits the description of something that is not specifically covered the the rules

[ChuckElias]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The reality of the situation was that the assistant coach's actions would probably be considered felony child abuse,

That sounds flagrantly unsportsmanlike to me. Flagrant T and toss. Definitely covered under rule 10.

I understand what you did and why, Mark. And I agree that the guy should've been tossed. But I don't think you need to invoke 2-3 to do it. And in general, I don't know if you can -- by rule -- toss a coach without charging him with some kind of foul. Just trying to show the other side of the argument.

Chuck

[Mark Dexter]

Mark, using 2-3 here is like crew using 2-3 to justify calling BI on a hitting the backboard play.

Certainly, you can call over game management, and they can send someone off, but an official cannot do so (to a team member) without invoking some sort of penalty.