POI and Referee Magazine case play

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Fwiw, I don't agree that the FED English is "plain" either.

I know. Hence, me being "astounded".

[Adam]

It seems to me that when the FED changed to POI on double fouls, they ran across the problem of needing to define something that hadn't previously been an issue; the physical location of a ball in flight. They'd had to define it's status for BC/FC issues, but defined "location" hadn't come up. Now, with POI, they needed something.

Well, what do you know, the definition of status fits pretty well, and it works as well as anything. They stuck with a rule they had in the book already instead of making some awkward distinction between status and location.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Well, what do you know, the definition of status fits pretty well, and it works as well as anything.

Gee, I think that maybe....just maybe....some officials might just have the capability to actually figure out the closest OOB location to an airborne ball when the whistle blows. And if you do have to guess, don't forget that you're making the exact same kind of guess when you locate the spot of the origin of the pass. Spot location of the throw-in would be just as accurate in both cases anyway. It ain't freaking brain surgery.

Riddle me this....if the ball was passed from just over center and it was almost (but still untouched) to a player on the endline when a double foul occurred, are you locating the subsequent throw-in at center?

As I said, locating a Point of Interruption at a POINT where the ball WASN'T when play was INTERRUPTED makes zero sense to me.

However, it is what it is.

[Adam]

Ah, but some people don't like being left to their common sense, JR. Others just shouldn't be left to their common sense. And some don't have common sense to use. Since everything needs to be defined, here we are....

If it's close enough I can't tell which happened first, I'll assume the player touched the ball before the double foul. If it's far enough that a 10 second call would be warranted if the situation were right, I'd go back to the release point.

That's just me, though.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

They only win if we let them win.

Good quote. Is it yours? I can't find it anywhere on the internet.

Is it the same as "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself" (Franklin D. Roosevelt)? Maybe your quote may become as famous some day?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If it's close enough I can't tell which happened first, I'll assume the player touched the ball before the double foul. If it's far enough that a 10 second call would be warranted if the situation were right, I'd go back to the release point.

That's just me, though.

I'm glad that's just you. I can't figure out how you could get a 10 second call on a ball passed from the front court to another spot in the front court. But that's just me, though.

Try your logic on these:

1) A1 has a throw-in on the endline under their own basket. B1, standing just inbounds guarding the throw-in, tips the ball on the throw-in. The ball goes into A's backcourt, and just before the ball lands and bounces just over the FT line in the lane, a double foul is committed. By rule, the throw-in has to go back to where B1 touched the ball, correct? Throw-in on the endline under A's basket, correct?

2) Exact same play, but the double foul is committed just after the ball bounces just over the FT line in the lane in A's backcourt....now, by rule, you locate the throw-in on the endline under team B's basket on the endline, correct?

Maybe somebody(like Scrappy ShortPants) can explain the logic to me of locating the throw-in at different ends of the court in these almost identical plays.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That's definitive. I was wrong.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Had I done so I would have sent an email post haste to Mary Struckhoff informing her of my concern and why...I am going to bed now and will address a letter to Mary Struckhoff in the early part of next week.

How did you get to be so chummy with Ms. Struckhoff. I've been a member of this Forum for a few years, and I can't remember anyone but you having such direct access to the NFHS basketball rules editor.

I would love to have her email address. Then I wouldn't have to read through so many posts, and opinions, to get quality answers to problematic questions. Instead, I could get the answer right out of the "horse's mouth" (no offense intended, she's actually quite attractive, maybe even hot). Wait a minute. Then I would miss out on all the fun.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I would love to have her email address. Then I wouldn't have to read through so many posts, and opinions, to get quality answers to problematic questions.

Yes you would. My understanding from a fellow official who knows Ms. Struckhoff personally is that she rarely answers inquiries from individual officials. She will sometimes respond to a state board of officials, but she works for the NFHS, which works for the state associations; she does not work for the officials.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Yes you would. My understanding from a fellow official who knows Ms. Struckhoff personally is that she rarely answers inquiries from individual officials. She will sometimes respond to a state board of officials, but she works for the NFHS, which works for the state associations; she does not work for the officials.

Is it "Double Secret" (Dean Vernon Wormer)?

Scrapper1: Just between you and me, please P.M. it to me.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I'm glad that's just you. I can't figure out how you could get a 10 second call on a ball passed from the front court to another spot in the front court. But that's just me, though.

Ah, that's the reason for my qualifier, "if the situation were right."

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Try your logic on these:

1) A1 has a throw-in on the endline under their own basket. B1, standing just inbounds guarding the throw-in, tips the ball on the throw-in. The ball goes into A's backcourt, and just before the ball lands and bounces just over the FT line in the lane, a double foul is committed. By rule, the throw-in has to go back to where B1 touched the ball, correct? Throw-in on the endline under A's basket, correct?

Yup, I'm with you so far.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

2) Exact same play, but the double foul is committed just after the ball bounces just over the FT line in the lane in A's backcourt....now, by rule, you locate the throw-in on the endline under team B's basket on the endline, correct?

By rule, yes.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Maybe somebody(like Scrappy ShortPants) can explain the logic to me of locating the throw-in at different ends of the court in these almost identical plays.

I'm not saying I don't agree with you when it comes to how I'd prefer to see it done. Your way makes more sense, to be honest. To me, though, it's a pretty clear rule when it says "the location of the ball is defined...."

Frankly, I think the committee just didn't care enough about this to add another definition changing the location of the ball for POI purposes.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Is it "Double Secret" (Dean Vernon Wormer)?

Scrapper1: Just between you and me, please P.M. it to me.

Nope. It's not double secret. It's classified. I think you know what that means.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Scrapper1: Just between you and me, please P.M. it to me.

PM what to you? You lost me, Billy. If you mean Mary's email address, I don't have it. What I told you was told to me by someone else who knows her. I don't personally know her.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

What I told you was told to me by someone else who knows her. I don't personally know her.

Is this like the six degrees of Kevin Bacon, but instead it's the six degrees of Mary Struckhoff?



Also, I was just kidding (but it would be nice to have that email address, although if I had her email address, I probably would be too timid to use it, after all, she is the queen of basketball rules, just like I would be nervous to actually speak to ChuckElias, the king of basketball rules, if I ever got the chance).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It's classified. I think you know what that means.

Sure do. I can find it in this section of the newspaper: