NCAA Press Release for 2002-03 rules changes.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Chuck,

The FIBA definition of team and player control is exactly the same as the NFHS/NCAA definition.

[Kelvin green]

I agree this wont be that difficult.
I'll be interested to see how the final wording is done but my guess is that it will be more worded like the NBA rule than most anone wants to admit.

When it is on the offensive team why not use the NBA definition " An offensive foul is illegal contact, committed by an offensive player, after the ball is live." and although the NBA doesnt consider the ball live until it leaves the throwers hands ( this is so any fouls prior to release are two shot fouls or away from the play foul in the last two minutes)) the NBA has that covered " A personal foul committed by the offensive team during a throw-in shall be an offensive foul, regardless of whether the ball has been released.

Or are we too stupid to figure out which player is on offense and which player is on defense?

Go figure on when the ball is loose why not just use the NBA's definition- it makes things a whole lot easier as Drake mentioned earlier "A loose ball foul is illegal contact, after the ball is alive, when team control does not exist."

Of course the NBA's definition of team control makes more sense too "A team is in control when a player is holding, dribbling or passing the ball. Team control ends when the defensive team deflects the ball or there is a field goal attempt." They dont need to worry about player and team control.

With these definitions there is a lot less confusion.

NFHS and NCAA sometimes make things more difficult than they ought to be trying to make everything fit into nice neat defintitions, or trying to make definitions fit consistently. That's why is has taken NF how many years to figure out the player catching the ball is possession and a violation just wasnt fair.


Maybe we'll get smart enough not to count the Offensive fouls towards the bonus either... Naw that would be too much to ask.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
Maybe we'll get smart enough not to count the Offensive fouls towards the bonus either... Naw that would be too much to ask.

Honestly, that's one of the things about the NBA rules that just doesn't make any sense to me. If it's a personal foul, it should count against that person's team. What's the rationale for not counting it as a team foul? I honestly don't know. There can't be any logic to it, from a rules/definitions standpoint. The only reason for it seems to be that they don't want to get to the bonus too quickly. Well, then, why not exclude other kinds of fouls from the team count too? Maybe we could also exclude shooting fouls from the team count. Since the offended player is already awarded FTs, no need to count that foul toward the bonus.

That rant is totally irrelevant, sorry. But I wanted to say that I don't think it will be too complicated either if they simply say that the rule only applies when there's player control. That eliminates any weird possibilities. And we don't have to go the NBA's "loose ball" terminology, or change the definition of team control. Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Chuck

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Kelvin green


With these definitions there is a lot less confusion.

NFHS and NCAA sometimes make things more difficult than they ought to be trying to make everything fit into nice neat defintitions, or trying to make definitions fit consistently. That's why is has taken NF how many years to figure out the player catching the ball is possession and a violation just wasnt fair.


Maybe we'll get smart enough not to count the Offensive fouls towards the bonus either... Naw that would be too much to ask.

I have to agree with most of the above.Using the NBA definitions would make some plays a lot easier and simpler to interpret,call and apply.Maybe players,coaches,fans,announcers,some officials,etc. would have a better understanding too of what the right call and application is.Most of them don't have a clue about the concepts of player and team control as currently defined in NCAA/FED.I have to agree with Chuck,though.I can't see the logic of not counting offensive fouls toward the bonus.I do like the NBA rule,however,of starting the bonus fresh each quarter.That used to be the FED rule a long time ago-5 fouls per quarter put you into the bonus then.It makes for a much longer game now-especially when the skill level is low.

[Kelvin green]

Although I cant officially comment for the NBA... My perspective of not counting the offensive fouls towards the bonus is this:

First it keeps the game moving with less fouls counting toward the penalty so you shoot a few times less per quarter.

Second from a game management situation, In a NF game are there crappy picks/marginal picks that we let go because we dont want to call fouls and shoot free throws? Does it ever run through your mind I ought to call the bad pick but because of bonus/team fouls etc you dont?
I think it encourages the calling of off ball stuff on the offense. The only penalty is the personal foul on the player, other than that it does not effect the game anymore than any other turnover.

And I wholeheartedly agree that the bonus should be by quarter and reset.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
Does it ever run through your mind I ought to call the bad pick but because of bonus/team fouls etc you dont?

Uh, no. Would you really not call a foul b/c you didn't want to shoot FTs?

Chuck

[Kelvin green]

The questions we all ask in games...
I kow it runs through many an official's mind...
Given the current game situation... points, time, and penalties,... does the contact warrant a foul being called. I know there are times we let marginally disavantageous stuff go because of those very reasons.

Go figure that's why the swinging elbows as a T is being changed. Nobody wanted to call it with that as a penalty. Make it a turnover and you'll see it called much more often. Same thing applies make offensive fouls a mere turnover and they get called more often

[DrakeM]

Kelvin,
Just for clarification.
The ball is considered "live" when it's placed at the throwers disposal. It is "alive" when it is released.:P
I know. I'm a pain in the a**.

[Kelvin green]

I knew that- whoops- Thanks.

Still doesnt change the two shot foul before the ball becomes "alive"

Besides I need some one to be a pain in the *^& when it comes to the rules it keeps me straight