Legal pick?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

First, the talking head is an idiot to make the statement that the official did not see the contact.

Second, B2 had acquired (I hope I spelled that word correctly.) her position legally: she gave proper time and distance in relation to the moving A2. Keeping in mind that we are all seeing this play at actual game speed this what I also say. B2's body did not sway from side to side to cause contact with A2. B2 did stick her chest out prior to A2 making contact with her. Keeping mind that a player who is setting a screen can brace themselves against imminent contact, I am going to give the benefit of the doubt to B2 in this play. She did not push out with her hands and arms in an effort to push A2 nor did I think her sticking our her chest was an effort to push A2; it was an effort to brace herself against immenint contact by A2. Therefore, I have this as a legal screen by B2 and there is no foul by A2 because B2 was not displaced. This is pretty much a text book legal screen against a moving opponent.

MTD, Sr.

[Tio]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

First, the talking head is an idiot to make the statement that the official did not see the contact.

Second, B2 had acquired (I hope I spelled that word correctly.) her position legally: she gave proper time and distance in relation to the moving A2. Keeping in mind that we are all seeing this play at actual game speed this what I also say. B2's body did not sway from side to side to cause contact with A2. B2 did stick her chest out prior to A2 making contact with her. Keeping mind that a player who is setting a screen can brace themselves against imminent contact, I am going to give the benefit of the doubt to B2 in this play. She did not push out with her hands and arms in an effort to push A2 nor did I think her sticking our her chest was an effort to push A2; it was an effort to brace herself against immenint contact by A2. Therefore, I have this as a legal screen by B2 and there is no foul by A2 because B2 was not displaced. This is pretty much a text book legal screen against a moving opponent.

MTD, Sr.

When you are "bracing" yourself, you don't lean toward the oncoming player, which in my opinion she does (obvious in slow motion). Let's focus on the game management of the play. If you think that a no-call in this situation is good for the game, then by all means I would like to hear what kind of explanation the coach gets. I imagine this crew was in hot water the rest of the night.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Tio

When you are "bracing" yourself, you don't lean toward the oncoming player, which in my opinion she does (obvious in slow motion). Let's focus on the game management of the play. If you think that a no-call in this situation is good for the game, then by all means I would like to hear what kind of explanation the coach gets. I imagine this crew was in hot water the rest of the night.

Look, I haven't seen the play yet (stupid firewalls), but are you saying you'd call a foul just for game management purposes, even if the rules did not call for one?

Let's change this play and assume for a second that B2 had position, had stood there since the end of the 2004 Olympics, and A2 crashed into B2, falling to the floor but did not so much as make B2 flinch. What's your call?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Tio

When you are "bracing" yourself, you don't lean toward the oncoming player, which in my opinion she does (obvious in slow motion). Let's focus on the game management of the play. If you think that a no-call in this situation is good for the game, then by all means I would like to hear what kind of explanation the coach gets. I imagine this crew was in hot water the rest of the night.

The fact that we had to look at the play in slow motion (from two angles BTW) should tell you and everyone something.

And as I said, you are more worried about the result of the play, not whether it was legal or not. I would feel better if you just said it was illegal. Game management really has nothing to do with this play. At the very least it does not on a clip we see of one play.

Peace

[canuckrefguy]

The violence or lack thereof notwithstanding...

The screener makes a forward motion with her torso that is clearly not just bracing herself for contact.

Illegal screen.

As mentioned before, there is zero percent chance of getting in trouble by blowing your whistle here. Not because of "game management", but because it's the right call, and everybody can see it.

Had she just stood there it would have been a good screen, albeit a tough one (for that defender, anyway). The extra motion was unnecessary and illegal.

Agree the T may have been straight-lined, but I'm thinking his height, along with the rather large height difference between the screener and defender, should have presented the necessary look at the illegal torso action. But full speed, who knows.

"Make all your errors errors of omission" - John Clougherty

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

The violence or lack thereof notwithstanding...

The screener makes a forward motion with her torso that is clearly not just bracing herself for contact.

Illegal screen.

As mentioned before, there is zero percent chance of getting in trouble by blowing your whistle here. Not because of "game management", but because it's the right call, and everybody can see it.

Had she just stood there it would have been a good screen, albeit a tough one (for that defender, anyway). The extra motion was unnecessary and illegal.

Agree the T may have been straight-lined, but I'm thinking his height, along with the rather large height difference between the screener and defender, should have presented the necessary look at the illegal torso action. But full speed, who knows.

"Make all your errors errors of omission" - John Clougherty

I think this is overall well said. The "laying into" the defender by the offensive player is an unnatural move or overt move. She is not bracing herself she is trying to add a little extra to her screen. That is not a legitimate basketball move or play.

I agree that the game management reason is not the best statement to make here but I understand what he's saying. You could def be wrong on this play but be right cause no one is going to say a word.

Final verdict from me: illegal screen in every sense!

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The fact that we had to look at the play in slow motion (from two angles BTW) should tell you and everyone something.

While the play from a couple weeks ago was very difficult (I looked at it time after time and was only sure after seeing it frame-by-frame), this play took me 1 shot to judge and I decided before I even got to the replay. There is no way that this is anything but a block (illegal screen) and the trail should expect to receive a severe tounge lashing from somebody after that not calling that one (coach, assignor, evaluator, etc.)

[Tio]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

While the play from a couple weeks ago was very difficult (I looked at it time after time and was only sure after seeing it frame-by-frame), this play took me 1 shot to judge and I decided before I even got to the replay. There is no way that this is anything but a block (illegal screen) and the trail should expect to receive a severe tounge lashing from somebody after that not calling that one (coach, assignor, evaluator, etc.)

I think this possibly is a 2 official play with the C picking up the screener, but the bottom line is the T got surpised. Somebody needs to make the call.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Tio

I think this possibly is a 2 official play with the C picking up the screener, but the bottom line is the T got surpised. Somebody needs to make the call.

The C would not likely have this call. The C is in the FC, there are only two players without the ball. This was not a full court team press.

Peace

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The C would not likely have this call. The C is in the FC, there are only two players without the ball. This was not a full court team press.

Peace

No on this point he is absolutely right. Anytime there is anything other than a 1 on 1 matchup in the bc(Iow 3 or more players) the C should stay back. The ball is the most important part of the game and that is where everyone is watching so plays in its immediate vicinity must have more eyes on it in multiple player situations.

So in reference to this play I would not want 2 refs, my c especially, reffing that hard off ball in the FC when the ball is still 50+ ft from the basket. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

[JRutledge]

Mark,

I completely agree with you. The only reason I think it was a foul was because I saw the replay. Live speed, it was suspect at best and I see why a foul was not called. This is after all another 50/50 play that is really hard to call when live, especially for a single official to handle. And the C would likely not be looking at this play, because all the other players have released to the FC.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

B2 did stick her chest out prior to A2 making contact with her.

This is pretty much a text book legal screen against a moving opponent.

The text book says "The screener must stay within his/her vertical plane with a stance approximately shoulder width apart." That's rule 4-40-2(d) in the NFHS textbook, Mark. Sticking your chest INTO an opponent is NOT bracing for contact; it's being out of your vertical plane.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

First, the talking head is an idiot to make the statement

Normally I would agree with this blanket statement.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

that the official did not see the contact.

However, they might be correct - there is a chance the T was straight-lined. If you look at each replay, there is a relatively straight line from the official to the ball handler, to the defender, then the screener.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Second, B2 had acquired (I hope I spelled that word correctly.) her position legally: she gave proper time and distance in relation to the moving A2.

I disagree; I thought she was still moving into the path of the defender at the moment of contact. I also have to agree with the Jurassic One in that the screener poking out her chest is no different than hip-checking a cutter on the way by - both moves are illegal due to the rule he cited.

Jeff - on your point about the C releasing downcourt - I did look at the play again, and you're right that all the other players had passed half court, and the C was following them. It would be a good call for the C to make if there were a few more players in the backcourt, but you're right that the C might not be available to hang back that long to get that call.