Legal pick?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mu4scott

Once again changing the scenario. Well I wonder if you would call "this, if this happened" and "if this coach did this" you would do this.

Jrut... I'm talking about this play and no other. I don't give a crap what a coach thinks, but at the level I'm at and the level I'm striving to be at I had better be able to explain what I called. If not to the coach then to the assignor or commisioner of the conference. I wouldn't want to explain a no call or intentional in this situation.

I am not changing anything. I am trying to figure out why you and others care what a coach says about any play? This was your concern, not mine. And in this play I really give a damn what a coach thinks. Because the next screen might be completely legal and I might hear the next coach or the same coach complaining.

And if you call this intentional you are insane. Not only does this not fit anything in the rules that makes this intentional, you must have never seen the game of basketball. There is no way this could be intentional because the player was trying to set a screen, not take the player out. The screen was blind and if a teammate would have simply called out the screen, then the contact would have been minimal or non-existent at best. If I called that intentional or flagrant, I might not be talking very long to the supervisor. I would likely get fired or games taken away.

Peace

[Adam]

Rut, I'm only going to disagree so far as to say if the arms came up in a shoving motion prior to contact, I might go intentional on this. I couldn't see well enough from the video to tell one way or the other.

[btaylor64]

I like tio and mu4Scott's thought process but I would like for us all to refine or come together as a group and redefine "game management". This OP us not a game management foul. Rarely, if ever, should we call fouls as a game management tools. One of those rare sitches involves sending a shooter to the ft line on a marginal contact play in a 20+ point ball game with under 2 min left. Game mgmt should encompass "running the game" by knowing the score, team fouls, when the penalty is coming up, taking care of subs, knowing the clock status, approaching and addressing coaches in a professional manner, etc. This is game management. We must strive to get plays correct.

This play is an offensive foul. While I don't agree with an intentional foul here. I am going to be more aware of both the players involved in the play for the next coming min. This is also part of good game mgmt (knowing when the intensity changes and levels of anger b/w players has risen)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Rut, I'm only going to disagree so far as to say if the arms came up in a shoving motion prior to contact, I might go intentional on this. I couldn't see well enough from the video to tell one way or the other.

Snaq,

And this is why someone higher than both of us will make decisions about our careers and the games we will work. If you feel that is the right call than advocate that. I would never advocate an intentional foul or anything else on some slight movement at the time of contact. I do not care what the rules says in a black and white way, because all the interpretations I see about excessive contact, it is not based on a slightly illegal screen.

Peace

[Tio]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am not changing anything. I am trying to figure out why you and others care what a coach says about any play? This was your concern, not mine. And in this play I really give a damn what a coach thinks. Because the next screen might be completely legal and I might hear the next coach or the same coach complaining.

And if you call this intentional you are insane. Not only does this not fit anything in the rules that makes this intentional, you must have never seen the game of basketball. There is no way this could be intentional because the player was trying to set a screen, not take the player out. The screen was blind and if a teammate would have simply called out the screen, then the contact would have been minimal or non-existent at best. If I called that intentional or flagrant, I might not be talking very long to the supervisor. I would likely get fired or games taken away.

Peace

Can we at least agree that the play needs a whistle? I think an agreement between us might be a landmark achievement.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by vbzebra

In this case, the screener did not provide the required time/distance before stepping in the path of the opponent. My guess is it caught the new T by surprise, since it was secondary defender. This would've been a good call by the C.

Caught the new T by surprise? Amen. I've watched this video several times, knowing what to expect, and this screen still catches me by surprise. Imagine how surprised the screened player must have been.

[mu4scott]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And if you call this intentional you are insane. Not only does this not fit anything in the rules that makes this intentional, you must have never seen the game of basketball. There is no way this could be intentional because the player was trying to set a screen, not take the player out. The screen was blind and if a teammate would have simply called out the screen, then the contact would have been minimal or non-existent at best. If I called that intentional or flagrant, I might not be talking very long to the supervisor. I would likely get fired or games taken away.
Peace

Jrut re-read the sentence. I said I wouldn't want to explain a "no call" or "intentional" because it would have been the wrong call.

We finally agreed on something!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Tio

Can we at least agree that the play needs a whistle? I think an agreement between us might be a landmark achievement.

You obviously have a reading problem.

Peace

[canuckrefguy]

I gotta say...

I'm surprised this thread is so long.

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Check it out. Have your speakers on to hear the announcer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9rYa...eature=related

Nope, illegal screen. The screener was leaning towards the defensive person.....

[doubleringer]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There is a reason you “call out” screens to your teammates.

Peace

I watched the play a few times and from the camera angle I don't see that it is an obvious foul or an obvious no call. I could really be fine with either call and T and C had a better look at it than us. The screener appears to be in a good position as far as timing and distance, but she also appears to lean a little at contact. We all know that the game looks different from the floor tahn it does from the stands. Tough play either way. I don't agree that you call a foul purely for game management, you call what you see. We all know there can be contact without a foul. I think Rut hit it on the head in that there should be a teammate there to call out the screen, especially at that level of basketball.

So, my definitive decsion after watching the tape is, "hell if I know."

[zeedonk]

From my (newer official) perspective, I'm probably calling that and going the other way every time. I understand that these are college players and even at the HS level, I think I'm still making that call. I think I see enough forward movement from A2 combined with the shoulder turn (slight as it may be) to turn the ball over.

I'm not so concerned with the contact (violent, excessive etc) because if she didn't move forward and turn the shoulder, I'm probably not calling it. The argument that she can brace herself for contact holds water with me, but I think I see more than that, or at least A2 operating under the theory of "I'm gonna get hit pretty good, so I'm going to brace hard and give a little back".

My impression at first view at full speed was foul on offense. Given the movement, intentional or not, of A2, if I let it go, things get out of hand pretty quickly.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zeedonk

My impression at first view at full speed was foul on offense. Given the movement, intentional or not, of A2, if I let it go, things get out of hand pretty quickly.

Games only get out of hand if you do not know how to deal with situations. They do not get out of hand because of one call or non-call. The violence of this play was caused because the defensive player never saw the screen. It was not caused by a slight lean at the time of contact. Actually without the slow motion replay, it was hard to tell how much lean if any at all. Because time and distance was clearly given, the screen was just not vertical and within the screener's space.

What are you going to do if you have a legal play and the violence was the same? How are you going to keep the game from getting out of hand if you have a legal play and the team on defense is still upset? I say this because most situations I have handled with my partners almost never take place based on how much air I put into my whistle.

Peace

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by msavakinas

JRut,

I think if I have this much contact on a play, odds are there is a foul on somebody... but not always.

I worked with a guy once who told me that if there was a player down on the floor, there had to be a foul on somebody. I asked him if he had ever seen a player running down the floor just trip over his own feet with no one else around him. He said, "Gee, I never thought of that."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by msavakinas

I think if I have this much contact on a play, odds are there is a foul on somebody... but not always.

Odds figure into it about as much as game management does. Nada! Zip! Iow, you can't depend on either; they're both completely irrelevant.

Quit over-thinking the play and simply call what happens. Each play is different; each call is different.