Legal pick?

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

The violence or lack thereof notwithstanding...

The screener makes a forward motion with her torso that is clearly not just bracing herself for contact.

Illegal screen.

As mentioned before, there is zero percent chance of getting in trouble by blowing your whistle here. Not because of "game management", but because it's the right call, and everybody can see it.

Had she just stood there it would have been a good screen, albeit a tough one (for that defender, anyway). The extra motion was unnecessary and illegal.

Agree the T may have been straight-lined, but I'm thinking his height, along with the rather large height difference between the screener and defender, should have presented the necessary look at the illegal torso action. But full speed, who knows.

"Make all your errors errors of omission" - John Clougherty

I think this is overall well said. The "laying into" the defender by the offensive player is an unnatural move or overt move. She is not bracing herself she is trying to add a little extra to her screen. That is not a legitimate basketball move or play.

I agree that the game management reason is not the best statement to make here but I understand what he's saying. You could def be wrong on this play but be right cause no one is going to say a word.

Final verdict from me: illegal screen in every sense!

[Adam]

Okay, I just saw the replay, and it's an easy call on A2. Looking at the point of contact, her legs are nearly 45 degrees from the floor as she leans into the oncoming player. Bracing for contact does not include a body check.

My first thought was a possible intentional foul; when illegal contact (and this was) gets excessive (this might be), it can be an intentional regardless of "intent."

BTW, I still don't know what exactly "game management" is. Some cite it to justify not calling a technical foul. Others cite it when claiming they never have to call a technical foul. Still others cite it when calling a foul on what should, by rule, be incidental contact. Note again for the record, this play does not qualify as incidental contact, IMO, because A2 was obviously leaning into her and in real speed, it looks like she even used her arms to increase the level of contact.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

BTW, I still don't know what exactly "game management" is.

Good game management is how you describe your own calls.

Bad game management is how you describe other official's calls.

And game interrupters are how you describe any call that you don't personally agree with.

It's true, it's true.

[mu4scott]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

My first thought was a possible intentional foul; when illegal contact (and this was) gets excessive (this might be), it can be an intentional regardless of "intent."

That would be a perfect example of bad game management.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

My first thought was a possible intentional foul

Not a chance, IMO.

[JugglingReferee]

I see the body extending from the vertical as well as the arms coming away from the body. At minimum it's a personal foul. Excessive contact enters my mind - no doubt.

[zm1283]

I had almost this same play in a game last year, except the defender (B2 in this situation) ran over the screener (A2). B2 was completely blindsided, but when she turned around they made contact and A2 fell over. Of course everyone was screaming but I let it go.

Edit: As for the video, there is no way it's intentional. It's VERY borderline in my opinion on whether it's even a foul or not. Hard to tell from the video.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mu4scott

That would be a perfect example of bad game management.

Really? I couldn't tell from the camera angle if she extends her arms, or just leans her whole body. If she extends her arms like that on a blind screen, I don't see how you could argue against an intentional. It's well within the rules, IMO.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by msavakinas

jr- I don't get your comment on Game management?? Sounds to me like you think it is hooplah. Please elaborate on it a little further.

I don't speak for JR, but I think GM is real. However, I see it get tossed out as the reason for either bad calls (calling a foul when none should be called), no calls (on violations, for example) (wait, those are game interrupters, never mind), or ignoring unsporting behavior. It almost seems like it's used as a catch-all excuse for taking the easy way out.

[mu4scott]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Really? I couldn't tell from the camera angle if she extends her arms, or just leans her whole body. If she extends her arms like that on a blind screen, I don't see how you could argue against an intentional. It's well within the rules, IMO.

I couldn’t be more adamant that you shouldn't call an intentional foul. When I watched it w/o the replays I thought illegal screen because she leaned into her a little bit. Certainly not much and certainly not enough to warrant an intentional. Yes it was a hard foul, but that’s what happens when players get picked off in the backcourt in most instances.

Game management thoughts.

We have a tie game at the 13:00 mark in the second half. If you whistle the offensive screener for an intentional their coach is going to be up your entire crew’s rear end the rest of the game. Any sort of action that’s even close to being intentional is going to be questioned. Also if this game stays close they are going to question any sort of blatant fouling at the end of the game.

Calling the illegal screen as a common foul is the way to go in this instance. No way should it even be considered intentional.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by mu4scott

Game management thoughts.

We have a tie game at the 13:00 mark in the second half. If you whistle the offensive screener for an intentional their coach is going to be up your entire crew’s rear end the rest of the game. Any sort of action that’s even close to being intentional is going to be questioned. Also if this game stays close they are going to question any sort of blatant fouling at the end of the game.

Calling the illegal screen as a common foul is the way to go in this instance. No way should it even be considered intentional.

So, you're saying you don't make a particular call because you're afraid the coach might not like it and be on your case?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mu4scott

We have a tie game at the 13:00 mark in the second half. If you whistle the offensive screener for an intentional their coach is going to be up your entire crew’s rear end the rest of the game. Any sort of action that’s even close to being intentional is going to be questioned. Also if this game stays close they are going to question any sort of blatant fouling at the end of the game.

If you're worried about making coaches happy, you're in the wrong business. Who gives a damn if we're questioned about any call that we make? The only worry we should have is to get the call right!

Game management has absolutely NOTHING to do with worrying about how the coaches, players or fans are going to react to a call.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Game management has absolutely NOTHING to do with worrying about how the coaches, players or fans are going to react to a call.

And that right there would be my biggest gripe with the whole "game management" way of thinking. I can't even begin to count the number of times a supervisor or evaluator has used a line like" What do you think the coach thought of that call?" or "How do you think that looked to the blue coach?" - and then used that to lead into a discussion on their thoughts about "game management"...my response to those questions is -and will be - "I have no idea what they thought. It was (or wasn't) a foul and that's why I did (or didn't) blow the whistle."

[mu4scott]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

So, you're saying you don't make a particular call because you're afraid the coach might not like it and be on your case?

No I said I'm going to make the right call which is an illegal screen. Calling an intentional foul would be questionable at best and would more than likely lead to problems the rest of the game if you came up with both arms crossed.

It’s game management in the since that an intentional foul would lead to cluster #$%!

[mu4scott]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you're worried about making coaches happy, you're in the wrong business. Who gives a damn if we're questioned about any call that we make? The only worry we should have is to get the call right!

Game management has absolutely NOTHING to do with worrying about how the coaches, players or fans are going to react to a call.

I'm all about getting the call right. The right call is a blocking foul and no intentional.

I could care less what the fans think and I certainly am not on that court to make coaches happy. I call the game to the best of my ability and portion of that is making sure that I have great Game Management.