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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 17, 2000, 03:58pm
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grussell -

how bout that.........Just what I said....
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 17, 2000, 04:02pm
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Go back and read what you said... In my case, the player was already in the game; your answer was "player can enter once tech is administered." Also, my first question had nothing to do with the shooter's feet as much as it had to do with whether the touching, whether in- or outside the arc, changed the value of the basket..... Still, overall, your answer was essentially correct, I must say!

[This message has been edited by grussell (edited February 17, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by grussell (edited February 17, 2000).]
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 17, 2000, 04:10pm
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grussell -

ok ok Cut me a little slack here -

I mentioned about the feet only because I thought you might not realize that from your description "he released the ball from outside the arc" indicated as such and then my last comment on #1 was "once it was tipped it was 2"

#2 I didnt read your post carefully...I thought the second half had not started yet...I got the t and that she could play...that was the important part...
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 17, 2000, 04:13pm
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jackgil--

you're correct...not meaning to be too picky. I appreciate yours and everyone else's help. It just shows what an unusual situation this was and how many different methods of interpreting the same play exist...

Thanks again for everyone's help.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 17, 2000, 04:19pm
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Grussell -- along that line of thought --- what happens if shot is taken by A1 and is short and it hits A2's head and goes in. Is it a basket? I saw it happen so don't think it ludicrous.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 17, 2000, 04:20pm
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With all due respect to Mr. Knox, I'd like some justification if possible regarding the shirt number being changed in the book. Casebook 3.2.2E on page 15 seems to address this post right on the head. Nowhere does it say a "T" is charged or that the official must be notified. This seems to contradict Mr. Knox's interpretation. Clarification please?

3.2.2E Team A properly submits its squad list and designates the five starters as required at least ten minutes before the scheduled start of the game. Anytime thereafter, either before the game starts or during the game, the coach asks the scorer to change a number in the scorebook: (a) so it corresponds to what the squad member is wearing or (b) because a player's shirt has excessive blood on it or (c) because a player's shirt is torn.

Ruling: In (a), a technical foul is charged to Team A. In (b) and (c) the shirt is changed and the number change made in the scorebook WITHOUT ANY PENALTY.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 17, 2000, 04:36pm
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Walt...

Called Dick back, as what you said made perfect sense to me too. His response was that if the official scorer is aware but does not notify the officials, nor does the coach notify the officials, the penalty is a technical foul. When I talked to him the first time, he asked me which scorer had been told by the coach to change the number, and I told him I was uncertain; although this is useful information, it makes no difference in the penalty phase of the rule. He said that if the official scorer does not relay this situation to the officials, then there is a technical, as the official scorer is a part of the crew as well. Hope this clarifies things up (and I'm glad Dick doesn't charge by the phone call).
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 17, 2000, 04:46pm
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Thanks, Walt. I too respect Mr. Knox, though I don't know him, but I study the rules pretty hard too. Just 'cuz he helps write them, doesn't mean he knows them ALL at a moment's conversation. Your point lends support to what I was trying to say. Plus, it would seem contradictory to apply Rule 10-3-1, yet call this a "team" technical and not consider it a flagrant. The player IS listed in the book and by rule becomes a player when the ball becomes live. It is questionable whether it warrants a "T" anyway, but if it IS a team technical, then the penalty as prescribed is assessed when it occurs--i.e., when the scorer is requested to change the player's number in the book. Until I hear a better rationale for interpreting this otherwise, I stand by my position.

Also, regarding the deflected shot/pass: If it was considered a pass, then I agree with Mr. Knox that it's only 2 points. But if it is deemed a "shot" because the ref couldn't with certainty say otherwise, then a blocked or tipped shot that was taken outside the arc is still 3 points. That's clear in the casebook.

Finally, I take no embarrassment if I'm corrected about something. I've yet to meet anyone who is never wrong about a rule interpretation once in a while. So, "grussel," thanks for a stimulating discussion and keeping us all on our toes. This matter isn't resolved yet to our unanimous satistaction, but I love these dialogs even so. Keep it comin'!

[This message has been edited by Todd VandenAkker (edited February 21, 2000).]
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 17, 2000, 05:13pm
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Todd-

Now that I think more about it and listening to your comments, I'm thinking a deflected shot from 3 counts as 3. Haven't we seen where a shot goes in that is ever so slightly brushed or tipped by the defender. I don't think we'd have a question counting this as 2 or 3. It is only when the ball is deflected on a 3 further toward the basket that we have our doubts. Where it is deflected shouldn't matter.

Todd, sounds like your quote from the rules/casebook would be very convincing in a court of law.

BTW, Todd, I was only pulling your leg when I mad comment about your being embarrassed. I consider you very knowledgeable of the rules and find you always try to substantiate your answers.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 17, 2000, 07:35pm
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Wink

Fight nicely boys....lol
How dare anyone challenge the Todd-meister.
He's been the Obee-wan-kanobe of this thing since I've been on here. He knows his stuff, boys and admits/corrects his errors. Todd, you wanna run for office? I'll back ya dude! Keep up the good work big guy.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 17, 2000, 10:07pm
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A BAT IS NOT A TRY...Look at 5.2.1...A 3 pointer results from a try or tap. Anything else, ie, bat, is a 2 pointer, even if batted from 75 feet!
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 18, 2000, 01:10am
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How do you say to the coach I "thought" he was passing the ball. Therefore it counts as a 2point. tough call.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 18, 2000, 12:34pm
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Since this was a tipped (partially blocked) shot, wouldn't it be different from a batted ball. I may be reaching here, but doesn't batting imply an intentional striking towards some particular direction?

Man, I need to bring some of my books to the office.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 18, 2000, 03:07pm
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Could this be helpful rules of thumb?:

If the "passer/shooter" was fouled, would your put him/her to the line (if team not in the bonus)?

Did the official signal a 3-pt shot attempt?

Let's not venture down the road of if the ball went in or not!

[This message has been edited by pizanno (edited February 18, 2000).]
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