Defender intentionally falls onto hands and knees...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I put in a work order...the IT department told me to STFU. How rude!!

Now we know where Dan works. I'd have never guessed it.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Now we know where Dan works. I'd have never guessed it.

STFU

[Adam]

Well, then. I stand corrected.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

STFU

Only took him 5 minutes to type all that! He's getting good with all this new-fangled computery stuff.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Only took him 5 minutes to type all that! He's getting good with all this new-fangled computery stuff.

Great, now I gotta wipe the diet pepsi off my screen yet again...

I've got to (reluctantly) point out the coach might actually be somewhat smart in trying this tactic. First off, he is absolutely correct in asking for a foul initially on the backing down. It's not only a POE with the NFHS, but it's also a POE at the NCAA-W level. (I'm not sure about NCAA-M, but it wouldn't surprise me.) But I'm also not entirely convinced having his player take that stance is unsporting. In NFHS, B1 is entitled to a spot on the floor, whether standing or lying down. If B1 takes that position after A1 receives the ball, there are no time and distance in screening requirements. If B1 were to trip and go down, then A1 falls over B1, wouldn't we (probably) call travelling? Why would we call a T if B1 takes the same position intentionally? Why do penalize B for taking a legal position, and A is not aware of the position of their defender?

Ok, I agree it's not really a "basketball play", and I wouldn't argue too strenuously if a partner called a T. But I'm still impressed the coach knew enough about the rules to give it a shot.

[Adam]

My first thought is an (leaving aside the valid point regarding the apparently missed PC calls) intentional foul. B1 is intentionally tripping A1.

That said, I understand the point about the rule not really having a provision for a foul here. B1 is stationary and not holding an illegal position. My only thought is the "purpose and intent" clause, not allowing a player to gain an unfair advantage not intended by the rules. I can't help but think of this move as an unfair tactic gaining an unfair advantage by tripping a "blind" opponent.

I'm still not sure my initial thought is correct.

[M&M Guy]

And I don't entirely disagree with your line of thinking; it's not a basketball play. However, B1 is not moving, and is certainly not initiating the contact, given the play we are discussing. It's another point entirely if B1 were to slide or roll into the back of A1's legs.

[Adam]

Why am I getting a sense of deja vu here?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

But I'm also not entirely convinced having his player take that stance is unsporting. In NFHS, B1 is entitled to a spot on the floor, whether standing or lying down. If B1 takes that position after A1 receives the ball, there are no time and distance in screening requirements. If B1 were to trip and go down, then A1 falls over B1, wouldn't we (probably) call traveling? Why would we call a T if B1 takes the same position intentionally? Why do penalize B for taking a legal position, and A is not aware of the position of their defender?

Personally, I wouldn't deem the action "unsporting". Instead, I'd call it "illegal", using the concept outlined in FED rule 10-6-1--"A player shall not hold, push charge, TRIP or impede the progress of an opponent by.... bending his/her body into other than a normal position, nor use any rough tactics." Going to the floor like that is not a normal position and it sureasheck is "rough tactics" to deliberately trip an opponent. That's close enough for me.

The other point is that I don't think that you can call a "T". It would have to be a personal foul of some kind, most likely an intentional personal foul.

My take on it......intentional personal foul. But I sureasheck ain't ever gonna make a call like that if I've let the post player get away with forcefully pushing/bouncing a defender off a legal position. That's called adding insult to injury.

Thoughts?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Thoughts?

I usually have none.

Oh, wait, you're talking about the subject at hand? I agree it shouldn't be a T. I'm just not convinced it can be a foul, either common or intentional, as the player is stationary and not the one initiating contact, especially given the context of the original play. A1 has been backing down B1 in earlier plays, so if A1 is expecting to do the same thing and falls over a stationary B1, I can't see how B1 is responsible for the contact. What specifically is B1 doing that would be considered "illegal"? Tripping is usually an active act, such as sticking a leg or arm out in front of a moving player. Also, how can sitting there motionless be considered rough play? It just seems hard to pick out a good, legitimate reason for calling a foul in this case, even though I think one could be called.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I usually have none.

Oh, wait, you're talking about the subject at hand? I agree it shouldn't be a T. I'm just not convinced it can be a foul, either common or intentional, as the player is stationary and not the one initiating contact, especially given the context of the original play. A1 has been backing down B1 in earlier plays, so if A1 is expecting to do the same thing and falls over a stationary B1, I can't see how B1 is responsible for the contact. What specifically is B1 doing that would be considered "illegal"? Tripping is usually an active act, such as sticking a leg or arm out in front of a moving player. Also, how can sitting there motionless be considered rough play? It just seems hard to pick out a good, legitimate reason for calling a foul in this case, even though I think one could be called.

If a defensive player was standing stationary but leaning their torso out to their left side with their arms straight out to their sides, and an offensive player driving for a basket runs into the defensive player's outsretched arm and/or shoulder, would you call a blocking foul even if the defensive player was stationary? What's the difference? This clearly falls under 'bending his/her body into other than a normal position'.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

STFU

For the record, I'd like to note that Dan's post is nasty.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

For the record, I'd like to note that Dan's post is nasty.

I agree with the record.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

For the record, I'd like to note that Dan is nasty.

There, I fixed it for you...just another comment from the peanut gallery!!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

There, I fixed it for you...just another comment from the peanut gallery!!

Is this where I'm supposed to clap?

I hope so, because I am.