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-   -   Parker's LONG sleeve undershirt in the Final Four (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/43420-parkers-long-sleeve-undershirt-final-four.html)

Camron Rust Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
You just made my point. If there was some sort of exemption granted/decision made to set aside this VERY CLEARLY STATED rule for this particular player, then there is no reason to even bother having the rule in the first place.
Let me quote:

"Therefore, it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player of a team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not intended by a rule."

So, the rule is there for a reason....you've got to not only know the rule but why the rule exists. Any given rule is not necessarily meant to be applied in a vacuum. This rule is one of them. They are there for a reason....and prohibiting medical aids that are not unsafe is not the reason.

rockyroad Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:00am
As i understand it, she was wearing some sort of shoulder brace that had straps that went under and around her upper arm, so the sleeves were there to cover those straps and keep everything covered up...and there was permission granted based on medical needs - as Dan already pointed out, that's the way the NCAA handles it. And not just for Parker. We had a D-III player in this area who had medical permission to wear long sleeves due to some kind of skin condition on her arms.

lpbreeze Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:42am
I don't know if anyone mentioned it but OJ Mayo was wearing socks with the NBA logo during the first round game

JRutledge Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lpbreeze
I don't know if anyone mentioned it but OJ Mayo was wearing socks with the NBA logo during the first round game
And what does that mean? This is not illegal.

Peace

JugglingReferee Fri Apr 11, 2008 03:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
And what does that mean? This is not illegal.
Perhaps just as further evidence that his recent declaration to forego his sophomore, junior, and senior years of college education, in favour of the NBA draft, should not be a surprise.

grunewar Fri Apr 11, 2008 05:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee
Perhaps just as further evidence that his recent declaration to forego his sophomore, junior, and senior years of college education, in favour of the NBA draft, should not be a surprise.
This was no surprise to most as we knew this when we discussed his performance and attitude at the end of last yr.

While I didn't see him play often this yr, I think he has tremendous upside and appeared fairly unselfish at times. Hopefully he's maturing and he can control himself and his posse with all his eventual $$$$.

Now, for his on and off the court behavior, who do you think he's more likely to turn out like? Tim Duncan, Lebron James, Allen Iverson, or Dennis Rodman? Only time will tell......and I wish him luck.

BearBoy Fri Apr 11, 2008 04:51pm
We've had this situation a couple of times in girls HS. For religious reasons, there were teams that had players who needed to have their legs and arms covered. State association approves on a case-by-case basis. Schools apply for a letter waiver issued by the state association. Schools affected must carry this waiver with them to show officials during pre-game.

So....we did have situations where some girls wore long sleeve undershirts and lycra-tights under their team uniforms. (The undergarments had to be same color of team uniform worn.)

On the boys side, we've had similar issues regarding headwear worn during games. We've had a situation with a young man who wore a tightly wrapped turban. Again, handled the same way as the situation above. (Cultural/religious exemptions)

Adam Fri Apr 11, 2008 04:57pm
Interesting. We were told specifically that if the coach said it was religious, we were to drop it there and report it to the state after the game. Provided, of course, that there was no safety concern involved.

Nevadaref Fri Apr 11, 2008 05:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyroad
As i understand it, she was wearing some sort of shoulder brace that had straps that went under and around her upper arm, so the sleeves were there to cover those straps and keep everything covered up...and there was permission granted based on medical needs - as Dan already pointed out, that's the way the NCAA handles it. And not just for Parker. We had a D-III player in this area who had medical permission to wear long sleeves due to some kind of skin condition on her arms.
Then why did she need the sleeves to go below the elbow? Why not cover the upper arm and also comply with the rule?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearboy
We've had this situation a couple of times in girls HS.
My intent with this thread was to discuss the NCAA rule, not HS. The HS situation has nothing to do with this. The NFHS book does NOT include language similar to the NCAA one which specifically prohibits the sleeves extending past the elbow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
When watching, I just assumed the rule was the same as for high school.
I was thinking the same thing until I checked into it. That is why I started this thread and posted what I found. It was my belief that many people probably were unaware of the precise wording of the NCAA rule. Clearly it is different from the HS ranks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
I'm not going to look it up or post it but there's an ncaa ruling/bulletin that states the dress rules that you so kindly posted in mulit-font/multi-color are unenforceable if there's a medical condition that applies.

So...if the coach said yeah, there's a medical reason that she needs to wear whatever you posted in bold red letter large font then yeah, it's legal.
So basically what I wrote yesterday is accurate. If some kind of exemption/decision was made to allow this player to wear such, then why bother having that rule in place?
Also, I don't see how a long sleeve undershirt is medically necessary for an injured shoulder. That's just silly. Then again so is the NCAA enforcement policy, if what you say about the bulletin is true.

Nevadaref Fri Apr 11, 2008 05:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Interesting. We were told specifically that if the coach said it was religious, we were to drop it there and report it to the state after the game. Provided, of course, that there was no safety concern involved.
Please don't turn this into a HS thread. If you wish to discuss the NFHS rule, please start another thread. I wish this one to remain focused solely on the NCAA rule.

Jurassic Referee Fri Apr 11, 2008 05:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BearBoy
So....we did have situations where some girls wore long sleeve undershirts and <font color = red>lycra-tights under their team uniforms</font>. (The undergarments had to be same color of team uniform worn.)
Yup, interesting. Your state made a ruling that directly contradicts NFHS rules. Casebook play 3.5.6.SitB asks if it's legal for a player because of religious reasons to wear tights under the basketball uniform shorts . The <b>RULING</b> states <i>"NFHS basketball rules do not require that the uniform pants be "shorts". However, undergarments or <b>tights</b> may <b>NOT</b> may not be worn which extend below the pants, therefore wearing tights "below the uniform shorts" would be <b>illegal</b>. The player could wear pants or a skirt as the uniform "bottom" and be in compliance."</i>

It's kinda interesting that a state would issue a ruling that is completely contradictory to a very explicit and definitive FED ruling. My first thought is usually to wonder if whoever issued that state ruling was actually aware of the relevant NFHS ruling. Be that as it may, they still have the right to amend rules, even though they might face FED sanctions for doing so.

Jurassic Referee Fri Apr 11, 2008 05:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Please don't turn this into a HS thread. If you wish to discuss the NFHS rule, please start another thread. I wish this one to remain focused solely on the NCAA rule.
Please piss off. You aren't a moderator and it's not your job to tell anyone what or where they can post.

You're getting ridiculous lately imo, Nevada, in your bossiness.

Dan_ref Fri Apr 11, 2008 06:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
So basically what I wrote yesterday is accurate. If some kind of exemption/decision was made to allow this player to wear such, then why bother having that rule in place?
Also, I don't see how a long sleeve undershirt is medically necessary for an injured shoulder. That's just silly. Then again so is the NCAA enforcement policy, if what you say about the bulletin is true.
No, what you wrote is absolutely inaccurate - what is inaccurate is your interpretation of the rule. A medical condition over-rides what you think is in the ncaa dress rules, as do religious considerations. Whether you believe that a particular exemption due to a medical condition is silly or not is 100% irrelevant. Your vote does not count, all you need to do is to get confirmation from the coach that a medical condition applies and tell the announcer to play the anthem, announce the players and then start the game. Pretty simple (even for you).

As for whether an exemption/decision might be part of the process... I'm guessing you threw that in without thinking about the words so I'll give you a pass.

In any event you're boring the sh1t out of me so I'll just leave you to your uneducated rants. Have fun.

rainmaker Fri Apr 11, 2008 07:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Then why did she need the sleeves to go below the elbow? Why not cover the upper arm and also comply with the rule?


My intent with this thread was to discuss the NCAA rule, not HS. The HS situation has nothing to do with this. The NFHS book does NOT include language similar to the NCAA one which specifically prohibits the sleeves extending past the elbow.


I was thinking the same thing until I checked into it. That is why I started this thread and posted what I found. It was my belief that many people probably were unaware of the precise wording of the NCAA rule. Clearly it is different from the HS ranks.


So basically what I wrote yesterday is accurate. If some kind of exemption/decision was made to allow this player to wear such, then why bother having that rule in place?
Also, I don't see how a long sleeve undershirt is medically necessary for an injured shoulder. That's just silly. Then again so is the NCAA enforcement policy, if what you say about the bulletin is true.
Good grief, Nevada. Get a life.

Camron Rust Fri Apr 11, 2008 07:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Then why did she need the sleeves to go below the elbow? Why not cover the upper arm and also comply with the rule?

...

So basically what I wrote yesterday is accurate. If some kind of exemption/decision was made to allow this player to wear such, then why bother having that rule in place?
Also, I don't see how a long sleeve undershirt is medically necessary for an injured shoulder. That's just silly. Then again so is the NCAA enforcement policy, if what you say about the bulletin is true.
Your medical opinion is of no relevance. If that is what her doctor told her to wear, she wears it. It may be that the type of support/protection she needed only happened to come in that size...or the medical supply place was out of the shorter one. It's not for us to ask why the medical appliance manufacturer didn't make it smaller or why the clerk didn't order more of the smaller. If a doc says she needs to wear it (and it is no safety hazard) it is a medical device, not part of the uniform....and the uniform rules don't apply to it.

As for why have the ruling....it keeps it from becoming a free-for-all with no reason. If it somehow gets abused and it becomes a problem, worry about it then.


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