Parker's LONG sleeve undershirt in the Final Four
 

During the Final Four, Candace Parker of Tennessee wore a white, LONG sleeve undershirt under her white team jersey due to a shoulder injury. We noticed it and made a couple of comments in the chatroom, but nothing substantive.

I did some checking into this and found that her undershirt should have been ruled illegal and that she should not have been allowed to participate while wearing it, but it seems that an exception can be made for a star player at the Final Four. :( Either the officials didn't know the rule or chose not to enforce it. Which makes one ask why even bother having such a rule in the book and why should the committee waste its time and effort wording such a change/clarification in the previous season?

There was a rule change for the 2006-07 season that prohibited this attire. Here is the text of the rule from that season as well as the current text from the 2007-08 NCAA rules book.

2006-07

Old Rule 3-5.13 and .14, 3-4.14, new page 72. Shirt sleeves may not extend below the elbow. Compression pants may not extend below the game pants.

Rule 3, Section 5
Art. 13. An undershirt is considered to be part of the game jersey and must
be a color similar to that of the game jersey. In addition, the sleeves and
neckline of undershirts shall be unaltered. (e.g., no cut-off sleeves or cut
necklines) Both sleeves shall be of the same length and not extend beyond the elbows. No logos, decorations, trim, commemorative patches, lettering or numbering may be used on an undershirt. An illegal undershirt shall not be worn.
A.R. 63. May a player remain in the game after being assessed an indirect technical foul for wearing an illegal undershirt or undergarment? RULING: Similar to the rule regarding jewelry, illegal undershirts or undergarments shall not be worn. The player shall leave the game and remove the illegal apparel; however, no technical foul shall be assessed.

2007-08

Rule 3, Section 5
Art. 11. An undershirt is considered to be part of the game jersey and must be a color similar to that of the game jersey. In addition, the sleeves and neckline of undershirts shall be unaltered. (e.g., no cut-off sleeves or cut necklines) Both sleeves shall be of the same length and not extend beyond the elbows. No logos, decorations, trim, commemorative patches, lettering or numbering may be used on an undershirt. An illegal undershirt shall not be worn.

I thought the same thing. It did look odd. For gamesmanship, if I was Stanford, I'd have a player wear the same.

Clarence

And here I thought it was only the NFHS that had such an unending fascination for fashion police stuff. Why should anybody really care if a player wants to wear a long sleeved undershirt? :confused:

You just made my point. If there was some sort of exemption granted/decision made to set aside this VERY CLEARLY STATED rule for this particular player, then there is no reason to even bother having the rule in the first place.

More or less the same thing Bob Knight recently said about "the walking rule.":D

Yep, the sentiment is that there has to be some reasonable expectation that what is written in the rules will actually be called. Unless this is the way it is actually done in practice, then any decision of an official becomes capricious and open to question. Why call that, but not this? Why now, but not then? Why against this team, but not that one. The coaches and players are simply put at a loss and left wondering.

Hence the recent and heavy emphasis from the administrations of the NBA, the NCAA, and the NFHS to call the rules as written and NOT inject personal philosophies into the game.

I'm not going to look it up or post it but there's an ncaa ruling/bulletin that states the dress rules that you so kindly posted in mulit-font/multi-color are unenforceable if there's a medical condition that applies.

So...if the coach said yeah, there's a medical reason that she needs to wear whatever you posted in bold red letter large font then yeah, it's legal.

It must not have been a problem. She was not wearing this for cosmetic reasons. She did separate her shoulder twice during the tournament.

Peace

I'm guessing you're right, it was not a problem.

Not everyone agrees with us. :shrug:

Dan.......I'm thinking that this rule is in place if they feel they need to enforce it for the right reason, yet when someone such as Parker needs an exception due to an injury it's allowable in the eyes of the officials. I don't follow though how the long sleeve would help her shoulder. It appeared to be somewhat loose fitting.

Could she be allowed to be wrapped like a mummy?

It did look odd, as I've never seen long sleeves before.

I agree that it was not a problem, but as far as the medical issue, could wearing long sleeves really have an impact on the shoulder? If anything, one could imagine a defender's hand inadvertently entering the sleeve and possibly causing further damage.

I've been told if a player is wearing an illegal arm sleeve or undergarment because of a medical reason then we are to leave it alone. Has nothing to do with Candace Parker. Just ask the coach & take his word for it.

I meant it objectively. I tend to agree with you, if that's OK with Nevada.

When watching, I just assumed the rule was the same as for high school.

Only time will tell if he'll start calling you a poopy head or not.

If he does then feel free to join my club.

Let me quote:

"Therefore, it is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation. A player of a team should not be permitted an advantage which is not intended by a rule. Neither should play be permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not intended by a rule."

So, the rule is there for a reason....you've got to not only know the rule but why the rule exists. Any given rule is not necessarily meant to be applied in a vacuum. This rule is one of them. They are there for a reason....and prohibiting medical aids that are not unsafe is not the reason.

As i understand it, she was wearing some sort of shoulder brace that had straps that went under and around her upper arm, so the sleeves were there to cover those straps and keep everything covered up...and there was permission granted based on medical needs - as Dan already pointed out, that's the way the NCAA handles it. And not just for Parker. We had a D-III player in this area who had medical permission to wear long sleeves due to some kind of skin condition on her arms.

I don't know if anyone mentioned it but OJ Mayo was wearing socks with the NBA logo during the first round game

And what does that mean? This is not illegal.

Peace

Perhaps just as further evidence that his recent declaration to forego his sophomore, junior, and senior years of college education, in favour of the NBA draft, should not be a surprise.

This was no surprise to most as we knew this when we discussed his performance and attitude at the end of last yr.

While I didn't see him play often this yr, I think he has tremendous upside and appeared fairly unselfish at times. Hopefully he's maturing and he can control himself and his posse with all his eventual $$$$.

Now, for his on and off the court behavior, who do you think he's more likely to turn out like? Tim Duncan, Lebron James, Allen Iverson, or Dennis Rodman? Only time will tell......and I wish him luck.

We've had this situation a couple of times in girls HS. For religious reasons, there were teams that had players who needed to have their legs and arms covered. State association approves on a case-by-case basis. Schools apply for a letter waiver issued by the state association. Schools affected must carry this waiver with them to show officials during pre-game.

So....we did have situations where some girls wore long sleeve undershirts and lycra-tights under their team uniforms. (The undergarments had to be same color of team uniform worn.)

On the boys side, we've had similar issues regarding headwear worn during games. We've had a situation with a young man who wore a tightly wrapped turban. Again, handled the same way as the situation above. (Cultural/religious exemptions)

Interesting. We were told specifically that if the coach said it was religious, we were to drop it there and report it to the state after the game. Provided, of course, that there was no safety concern involved.

Then why did she need the sleeves to go below the elbow? Why not cover the upper arm and also comply with the rule?

My intent with this thread was to discuss the NCAA rule, not HS. The HS situation has nothing to do with this. The NFHS book does NOT include language similar to the NCAA one which specifically prohibits the sleeves extending past the elbow.

I was thinking the same thing until I checked into it. That is why I started this thread and posted what I found. It was my belief that many people probably were unaware of the precise wording of the NCAA rule. Clearly it is different from the HS ranks.

So basically what I wrote yesterday is accurate. If some kind of exemption/decision was made to allow this player to wear such, then why bother having that rule in place?
Also, I don't see how a long sleeve undershirt is medically necessary for an injured shoulder. That's just silly. Then again so is the NCAA enforcement policy, if what you say about the bulletin is true.

Please don't turn this into a HS thread. If you wish to discuss the NFHS rule, please start another thread. I wish this one to remain focused solely on the NCAA rule.

Yup, interesting. Your state made a ruling that directly contradicts NFHS rules. Casebook play 3.5.6.SitB asks if it's legal for a player because of religious reasons to wear tights under the basketball uniform shorts . The <b>RULING</b> states <i>"NFHS basketball rules do not require that the uniform pants be "shorts". However, undergarments or <b>tights</b> may <b>NOT</b> may not be worn which extend below the pants, therefore wearing tights "below the uniform shorts" would be <b>illegal</b>. The player could wear pants or a skirt as the uniform "bottom" and be in compliance."</i>

It's kinda interesting that a state would issue a ruling that is completely contradictory to a very explicit and definitive FED ruling. My first thought is usually to wonder if whoever issued that state ruling was actually aware of the relevant NFHS ruling. Be that as it may, they still have the right to amend rules, even though they might face FED sanctions for doing so.

Please piss off. You aren't a moderator and it's not your job to tell anyone what or where they can post.

You're getting ridiculous lately imo, Nevada, in your bossiness.

No, what you wrote is absolutely inaccurate - what is inaccurate is your interpretation of the rule. A medical condition over-rides what you think is in the ncaa dress rules, as do religious considerations. Whether you believe that a particular exemption due to a medical condition is silly or not is 100% irrelevant. Your vote does not count, all you need to do is to get confirmation from the coach that a medical condition applies and tell the announcer to play the anthem, announce the players and then start the game. Pretty simple (even for you).

As for whether an exemption/decision might be part of the process... I'm guessing you threw that in without thinking about the words so I'll give you a pass.

In any event you're boring the sh1t out of me so I'll just leave you to your uneducated rants. Have fun.

Good grief, Nevada. Get a life.

Your medical opinion is of no relevance. If that is what her doctor told her to wear, she wears it. It may be that the type of support/protection she needed only happened to come in that size...or the medical supply place was out of the shorter one. It's not for us to ask why the medical appliance manufacturer didn't make it smaller or why the clerk didn't order more of the smaller. If a doc says she needs to wear it (and it is no safety hazard) it is a medical device, not part of the uniform....and the uniform rules don't apply to it.

As for why have the ruling....it keeps it from becoming a free-for-all with no reason. If it somehow gets abused and it becomes a problem, worry about it then.

Amen. Preach it brother.

I will tell you why that ruling was given. Is it better to follow a rule from an organization or is it better to deal with a lawsuit that the NF will never have to defend? I think staying out of a legal battle over religion is much better.

Unless the NF is going to defend every legal challenge to defend this rule then and only then I become upset over this interpretation.

Peace

First of all, I was responding to a post regarding high school situations by giving my own experience. Second of all, if you want that much control, maybe you could propose a rule change to the board allowing all thread starters to be able to moderate their own threads. :)

That option already exists. If the thread-starter deletes his opening post, the whole thread will disappear. That's the ultimate moderation.

I really don't get all the angst about this long-sleeved shirt - well, at least all the angst from one person. The NCAA is the governing body. They make the rules. It is also within the scope of their power to make exceptions to those rules. That's what they did. So what's the big deal???:confused:

Here's another example...I do not allow my students to wear hats in my classroom. The kids know this and take their hats off when they come in. Last year I had a 13 year old student who had to go through chemo and radiation treatments. She lost her hair. When her mom called and asked me about wearing a hat in class, I immediately said yes. See, it's my rule and I made an exception for that particular case.

So I ask again...what is the big deal?:confused: :confused:

She must have been a star player.

You crazy!!:)

COOL! IDK why you're making such a big fuss anyway. NCAA officials have told you that exceptions are made for medical conditions and you want to argue, when I'm pretty sure you don't work college basketball. Then, you start telling others what they can post. WTF is your problem? :confused:

It the National Championship, on national television, with 3 of the best officials, and with every conference supervisor in attendance.

I doubt Candace Parker snuck on the court and all of a sudden she appears with a long-sleeved white shirt and nobody knew what was going on. :rolleyes:

Heck....she wore that long-sleeved undershirt in the semi-final game as well! :cool:

The shirt was legal. The rule states that she can't wear a shirt extending below the elbows. She just has really low elbows. See, no problem. :D

Hey, good interpetation....dblref! :D :D

The Elbow's Connected To The ...
 

I've heard that some people don't know their a** from their elbow. I guess that others don't know their wrist from their elbow.

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0WTbx6XSA...ages/elbow.gif