How to say no

[M&M Guy]

Put yourself in the assignor's shoes for a moment. Their job depends on putting together a roster of officials that will do the best possible job for the conference. Given the fact that rules and mechanics change every year, how do they know you are getting and understanding the changes? How do they know you haven't gained 30 pounds in the off-season? Don't they have a responsibilty to personally know that the officials they are putting on the court can do the job?

Some people think of camps as the "initial" job interview, and once they're on staff, they're in. Many assignors consider their camps as an interview for each season's roster.

Something to consider.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by socalreff

The problem is that most of them are more interested in filling their pockets than filling slots.

Wow...now there's a sweeping generalization for you. And one that I completely disagree with. Those assignors jobs depend on who they put on the floor each season...they have the "right" (for lack of a better word) to expect you to prove yourself each season.

Having said that, I find it hard to believe that a JuCo assignor wouldn't realize that going to a "higher level" camp is a pretty good thing and accept that as their proof that you are working on your game.

And for doubleringer - I found myself in a similiar situation several years ago. When the assignor (who I get along with sooooo well) called me and asked why I wasn't signed up for the camp, I pulled out my notes from the previous summer's camp and read back to her the comments her evaluators gave me. Things like "Why the f--- are you here? There's nothing we can teach you." And "Why are you wasting your time coming here again? You need to go to a different camp." Pretty much ended the conversation right then and there. And yes, I'm still on the roster - or at least was. We'll see come next August!

[Tio]

I would agree with what has been posted by the other users, but would add the following. I think you really have to be careful about how you handle this. On one hand, you don't want the assigner to write you off or reduce your schedule. On the other, it is good to get input from fresh eyes. I would solicit feedback from the veteran officials in the group. Hopefully, there are some you trust that would give you their honest opinion on your summer plans. It might be worth only attending the camp for a day or two so at least you are getting in front of the assigner. Another possibility is to see if the assigner attends other camps in the area as an observer or clinician. Unfortunately, most assigners make you play the game of paying to go to their camps.

Good luck.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by socalreff

The problem is that most of them are more interested in filling their pockets than filling slots.

How often do you have to duck while riding your high horse?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

How often do you have to duck while riding your high horse?

That's no way to talk to a denizen of The Mythical And Magical Kingdom Of College And Above.

You apologize right now, Mister.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You apologize right now, Mister.

I won't do it. You can't make me, not even with an army of squirrels.

[doubleringer]

I agree with what I've heard here. I know I have to go do my song and dance to keep working. I'm just a little frustrated that I'm put in a position where I really can't say no. I could be working some spring baseball to help me get ready for the regular season. I'm newer to baseball and could use the work (not to mention making money instead of spending it). Anyway, thanks for the thoughts. It is always interesting to hear everyone's opinions.

[mick]

Originally Posted by doubleringer

I agree with what I've heard here. I know I have to go do my song and dance to keep working. I'm just a little frustrated that I'm put in a position where I really can't say no. I could be working some spring baseball to help me get ready for the regular season. I'm newer to baseball and could use the work (not to mention making money instead of spending it). Anyway, thanks for the thoughts. It is always interesting to hear everyone's opinions.

Yeah, yer locked in doubleringer.
Tsk, tsk. And don't you dare just do the song and dance!
You git to it. ...Finals next year.
You don't wanna git double skunked.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I won't do it. You can't make me, not even with an army of squirrels.

Not even the ones in that M&M commercial?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by socalreff

However, if you're already doing a good job for said assignor, there should at least be a discount for staff officials. And if he is just filling slots or wants to make sure you are keeping up with the game, he should offer the camp at no charge to his staff. The problem is that most of them are more interested in filling their pockets than filling slots.

I know that the responses to this are giving this poster a hard time, but I have the same questions.

Friend of mine goes to the same D3 women's camp every summer. Pays $300+ dollars to go, essentially just to stay on staff. Guy running the camp makes a fortune off of it and essentially expects the whole staff to come to fill the camp up.

Doesn't anyone see anything wrong with this ongoing pay to play mentality? It's starting to trickle down into the HS game here. I work a conference that many think is a top conference, but I refuse to clear my calendar to go to a camp the assignor runs that costs $300 with the not-so-veiled threat that "your schedule next season doesn't mean you have one the following season."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I know that the responses to this are giving this poster a hard time, but I have the same questions.

Friend of mine goes to the same D3 women's camp every summer. Pays $300+ dollars to go, essentially just to stay on staff. Guy running the camp makes a fortune off of it and essentially expects the whole staff to come to fill the camp up.

Doesn't anyone see anything wrong with this ongoing pay to play mentality? It's starting to trickle down into the HS game here. I work a conference that many think is a top conference, but I refuse to clear my calendar to go to a camp the assignor runs that costs $300 with the not-so-veiled threat that "your schedule next season doesn't mean you have one the following season."

No I do not. This is a business. If you do not like the things it takes to keep doing business, get out. It is that simple. If you do not want to go to camp, someone else will pay to go to camp.

But here is the funny thing about all of this. I have never heard any college supervisor ever get upset if you cannot go to a camp if there is a conflict. I really almost never hear that when you are attending other camps or have been on staff for more than one year. That sounds more like that is what people want to think than the reality.

Peace

[truerookie]

[quote=JRutledge]No I do not. This is a business. If you do not like the things it takes to keep doing business, get out. It is that simple. If you do not want to go to camp, someone else will pay to go to camp.


Rut, with all do respect this is bullsh!t. The high school level is not design to give an assignor a comfortable lifestyle off his/her staff. Furthermore, I can understand if the pay was even close to what some may get paid at the collegiate level which it is not. I have to agree with you though on the business aspect. But, it should not be at the officials expense while the assignor take assignment fee + camp fee at the officials expense. The official IMO is getting F%%%ed in this scenario.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Rut, with all do respect this is bullsh!t. The high school level is not design to give an assignor a comfortable lifestyle off his/her staff. Furthermore, I can understand if the pay was even close to what some may get paid at the collegiate level which it is not. I have to agree with you though on the business aspect. But, it should not be at the officials expense while the assignor take assignment fee + camp fee at the officials expense. The official IMO is getting F%%%ed in this scenario.

First of all you really need to go back and read what I said. I was not talking about HS, but the sentiment is really the same. If you do not like the circumstances of having to work games, then do not work them. Do what Rich did and not take the games. No one is holding a gun to your head.

Secondly, I would like to ask you where does it say someone cannot charge you money to attend their camp? Officiating is a business. If you run any other business there is some overhead to that business. And sometimes you have to pay for services in order to make money. I know with my business I have to pay for a lot of things before I make a cent. There are a lot of things I have to do to grow my business that require me to pay someone for something to make some money. You will find no such proclamation at the HS level has to be so different than any other level. And if you can find such literature then please show us a link or reference to it, because I would love to see where that is located. You have to pay dues to an association right? I know some who have to pay to use Assign By Web or the Arbiter software. The issue is how much and is it worth it to you.

There is a reality to officiating and there is fantasy. What you are telling me is fantasy because you do not like the system. Now I have never lived in an area that required such a big amount, but I have had to attend camps to work conferences. If I did not attend the camps I did not work. I make choices like that all the time either with pay the money or the time, or you do not work.

Peace

[doubleringer]

Since I started all this I'll chime in with my presonal philosophy. Yeah, I don't like paying for different camps every year, especially those I have to go to annually when I already work for that particular assignor. What I do is think of every camp as an investment as most of the camps pay off for me the following season. I also try to go in with the mentality that I am there to get better, not to get hired. Admittedly it gets harder to go in with this mentality as I get more experienced and work in more leagues, but I do try to focus on getting better.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

First of all you really need to go back and read what I said. I was not talking about HS, but the sentiment is really the same. If you do not like the circumstances of having to work games, then do not work them. Do what Rich did and not take the games. No one is holding a gun to your head.

Secondly, I would like to ask you where does it say someone cannot charge you money to attend their camp? Officiating is a business. If you run any other business there is some overhead to that business. And sometimes you have to pay for services in order to make money. I know with my business I have to pay for a lot of things before I make a cent. There are a lot of things I have to do to grow my business that require me to pay someone for something to make some money. You will find no such proclamation at the HS level has to be so different than any other level. And if you can find such literature then please show us a link or reference to it, because I would love to see where that is located. You have to pay dues to an association right? I know some who have to pay to use Assign By Web or the Arbiter software. The issue is how much and is it worth it to you.

There is a reality to officiating and there is fantasy. What you are telling me is fantasy because you do not like the system. Now I have never lived in an area that required such a big amount, but I have had to attend camps to work conferences. If I did not attend the camps I did not work. I make choices like that all the time either with pay the money or the time, or you do not work.

Peace

It will get to the point, Jeff, where only those with the time and money to attend multiple camps will get full schedules. Is that what high school sports is about?

There are some officials working I would not hire to work a middle school game. Some with no varsity experience at all are getting tons of work after attending one camp and it's clear they do not belong there. Deer-in-headlights looks, no whistles on obvious spots that require them, other officials having to carry a weak third, no feel for the game, etc. One would think that the assignors would worry about the product they put on the floor more, but it's clear that preference has been given to those who come to the camp and line the pockets of the assignor. I can only hope that the conferences look objectively at the product they are getting and assume they can do better.

One of the advantages of states that assign exclusively through officials' associations in that none of this stuff seems to happen within those groups and since the groups are run by officials, they have no interest in gouging each other.

Why should a HS camp ever cost $300? First of all, the campers are working games that would normally pay officials a certain amount. So not only do camp organizers get camp fees from each camper, they also get all the game fees the working officials would've gotten. The clinicians -- some are quite good, and some are HS officials who have been fast tracked for reasons (gender, race) other than ability who I wouldn't want to work a regular season game with and are people I personally wouldn't hire at a level higher than JV.

As a three-sport official, I never understand why basketball has this "camp" mentality and why it's trickled down. I work as much HS baseball as I want, my football crew works every Friday night, and not once has an assignor insisted that we go to a "camp." If you look at the state bulletin, 95% or more of the "education opportunities" are 3-person basketball camps, all of which cost way too much money for a HS camp. Seems nobody is willing to just run these to give back to the game, like the local association does every fall/winter for football and basketball.