Big Sky Suspends 3 Men's Officials

[M&M Guy]

I think I disagree with a couple of your points.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Sorry! I read past your post. I don't agree with this. It can't be a T/O until it is actually granted by the official.

First, you are right that the "request" doesn't stop play, the "granting" does. When does that "granting" actually happen? That has been debated in the past, but I contend it's when I mentally grant it, not specifically when the whistle blows. That can be backed by a rule fundamental: The official's whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead, because it is already dead. So, the TO has been granted even though my whistle hasn't blown. In "real-world" plays, most of the time, the TO being granted and the whistle blowing are pretty close to simultaneous. But I'm sure you've seen the play at the end of a close game where one team scores, then try to call TO before the other team gets the ball in play, and the whistle blows as the pass in the air. That's because the official had to verify the request was legal, as per 5-8-3 (team-control, at disposal, or dead ball), and therefore granted the TO even though the whistle might be a moment later.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

If the official never blew the whistle to acknowledge the T/O & time expires then there isn't a T/O

There is a case play, 10.1.6, that states an official has knowledge that the team had six players participating, but cannot get the clock stopped. The ruling is a T is called even though the official didn't get the clock stopped in time. The ball became dead with the official's knowledge, not when the whistle blew. Therefore, in this case, the TO was granted, even though the whistle didn't blow in time.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

just because the coach is requesting a T/O doesn't mean that we can grant it.

If it's a legal request, per 5-8-3, we're supposed to grant it. If it's not a legal request, then we're supposed to ignore it.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

What if HC B team requests a T/O, when they have none left, while the A team has the ball? The officials don't obviously grant the T/O since the B team doesn't have the ball. According to your logic you would still pin the BHC with a "T" just for the request.

No, you don't grant the request because it is not a legal request, as per 5-8-3, not just because they don't have any left to call.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

That specifies when and how the ball becomes dead via the Officials Whistle (article 5) and end of the period (article 6). It doesn't become dead at the sound of the coaches or players voice when requesting a timeout.

This is exactly what I said in the earlier thread. granting time-out as player goes oob

Everybody else here rolled their eyes when I suggested this. If this is true, when the airborne player requests a timeout then lands out of bounds before the whistle/signal, he commits a violation. The consensus was that when the official recognizes the legal request, it is considered to be instantly granted, so the interval before the signal is irrelevant, and no violation. If all this is true, if I recognize a timeout request before the buzzer, and the team has no timeout, how can it not be a technical?

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I think I disagree with a couple of your points.
First, you are right that the "request" doesn't stop play, the "granting" does. When does that "granting" actually happen? That has been debated in the past, but I contend it's when I mentally grant it, not specifically when the whistle blows. That can be backed by a rule fundamental: The official's whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead, because it is already dead.

Your right it is seldom but not never. There is nothing in rule 6 that says the ball is dead when the coach/player request a T/O legal or otherwise or when it is observed, heard or recognized. Its when the whistle blows granting the T/O.

The granting of the T/O by blowing the whistle is what causes the ball to become dead. To grant the T/O you would blow the whistle. Rule 6-7-5. You can't assume that the mental "granting super cedes the actual whistle granting." To say so would open up a whole lot of other stitch's as far as dead ball contact plays & timing corrections.

I see your point as far as a player calling T/O while in the air then lands before a whistle. The ball isn't dead while the player is requesting a T/O in the air it would be dead on the landing OOB or by the whistle. I have never blew my whistle after a player has landed and granted a T/O. If I'm so late in granting a T/O that the player clearly lands OOB then I'm calling the player OOB. Its like you said that its almost instant in blowing the whistle in plays like this.

Originally Posted by M&M

So, the TO has been granted even though my whistle hasn't blown.

I disagree. Its recognized but not granted until the whistle blows. I just can't agree that its granted as soon as you hear it. The actual whistle has to be the granting and the key to decide if the ball is dead and if there is going to be a timing correction

Originally Posted by M&M

But I'm sure you've seen the play at the end of a close game where one team scores, then try to call TO before the other team gets the ball in play, and the whistle blows as the pass in the air. That's because the official had to verify the request was legal, as per 5-8-3 (team-control, at disposal, or dead ball), and therefore granted the TO even though the whistle might be a moment later.

I have seen that play several times and am not sure that we are correct in granting the T/O after the ball is @ the disposal of the other team. So are you going to go back and reset the clock since your saying that the T/O was granted on the request & not the whistle? Of course not. If a coach calls a T/O and you look up & see 15 seconds then as you blow your whistle the clock stops @ 14 are you going back and adding the second since the request was @ 15?

Originally Posted by M&M

There is a case play, 10.1.6, that states an official has knowledge that the team had six players participating, but cannot get the clock stopped. The ruling is a T is called even though the official didn't get the clock stopped in time. The ball became dead with the official's knowledge, not when the whistle blew. Therefore, in this case, the TO was granted, even though the whistle didn't blow in time.

Good point but wrong sitch. The difference is that the act happened by the 6th man coming on the floor and becoming a legal player. Its a automatic "T" once its recognized by the official(s) so the ball became dead on the recognition of the infraction (T foul) by the official. The foul causes the ball to become dead not the whistle in this case play.

There's nothing in the rules that states the ball becomes dead on the request of the T/O. It can't because we have to be sure that we can grant it. Once we realize we can grant and blow our whistle the ball becomes dead on the whistle. What if the ball is loose and the coach calls an excessive T/O, times runs out. Are you going back and whacking the coach because you heard the request? I don't think you would. Therefore if you can't go back and get this then you can't possible say that the T/O is granted mentally first then by the whistle. I think case play 10.1.7 is pretty clear on when it is or isn't a "T"

Originally Posted by M&M

If it's a legal request, per 5-8-3, we're supposed to grant it. If it's not a legal request, then we're supposed to ignore it.

This statement solidifies why you can't say that the request is the key to the "T". Very simply because you have to make sure it is a legal request. It sounded like you were saying the the request would be "T" if it was excessive but only if the request was legal. If you were correct why would it matter since it was a request? It has to be when we physically grant it and not when we mentally grant it. The ball isn't dead until the whistle blows when granting the T/O.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

That has been debated in the past, but I contend it's when I mentally grant it, not specifically when the whistle blows.

I do not agree with much of your posts but I do want to present a situation with your above thought process regarding "mentally" granting the timeout. You're the L, A1 calls the timeout right in front of you at the split second, almost simultaneously of the horn going off, you hear it and mentally register it as hearing the word time or timeout right at the buzzer, buzzer goes off, T who has last second shot responsibility blows whistle to end the game almost simultaneously when you blow yours for the timeout, are you going to tell your partner that you mentally had the timeout because A1 called one a split second prior to the buzzer? I think this was asked earlier in the thread, but how much time would you consider putting on the clock, .01, .00?

I apologize if this topic was debated before and we're going over old stuff.

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by zebraman

We all have our opinions on who is best. The assignors hire who they think will do the best job for them. Those who don't get hired often have excuses.

You're kidding us right. Some of those who don't get hired have excuses, some have reasons. We all know people get hired for a variety of reasons. Looks, gender, who you know, are just a few of the reasons people get hired, or not hired.

So to suggest that the best are the only ones hired seems a little naive.

[ma_ref]

Originally Posted by zebraman

It did last year. I don't have statistics to track past years.

We all have our opinions on who is best. In an ideal world, The assignors hire who they think will do the best job for them. Those who don't get hired often have excuses.

I slightly modified your post for you, in the interest of accuracy.

I agree with the previous post'er. Reality is much, much different. If this truly is the case where you live, then tell me where you are, because I'm moving there.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Your right it is seldom but not never. There is nothing in rule 6 that says the ball is dead when the coach/player request a T/O legal or otherwise

We agree.

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

The granting of the T/O by blowing the whistle is what causes the ball to become dead. To grant the T/O you would blow the whistle. Rule 6-7-5.

Actually, the complete wording of 6-7-5 says the "The ball becomes dead, or remains dead when...(Art. 5) an official's whistle is blown." Add that to the Rules Fundamental #16 - "The officials' whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead; it is already dead." This is also backed up by the case play 10.1.6, that actually tells us that we still act upon the "action", and we still make the call, even though the whistle didn't blow in time. All of these things together make it pretty clear to me that it is not the whistle that causes the ball to become dead, it is the "action". In the case play, the "action" is a foul; in our sitch, the "action" is the official granting the TO. The whistle is simply a signal to let everyone know. Can you give me any rule or case play backing that says granting a TO is done only by blowing the whistle?

In the example of the player falling OOB while requesting a TO, if you somehow didn't have the whistle in your mouth, would you not grant the TO simply because you didn't blow the whistle before they landed OOB? I would grant the TO in this case. Even better, would they not be considered OOB when they landed because you didn't blow the whistle? Of course not.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

I do not agree with much of your posts but I do want to present a situation with your above thought process regarding "mentally" granting the timeout. You're the L, A1 calls the timeout right in front of you at the split second, almost simultaneously of the horn going off, you hear it and mentally register it as hearing the word time or timeout right at the buzzer, buzzer goes off, T who has last second shot responsibility blows whistle to end the game almost simultaneously when you blow yours for the timeout, are you going to tell your partner that you mentally had the timeout because A1 called one a split second prior to the buzzer? I think this was asked earlier in the thread, but how much time would you consider putting on the clock, .01, .00?

I apologize if this topic was debated before and we're going over old stuff.

This simply brings in time and "definite knowledge" principles. If we replace the TO request with a common foul before the bonus, or a violation, what would we do? We may know the request, foul, violation, or whistle happened before the horn, but if we do not have definite knowledge as to how much time to put back up, then the period has ended. If we do have definite knowledge, then we put that exact amount back on the clock and grant the TO or penalize the violation or foul.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

You're kidding us right. Some of those who don't get hired have excuses, some have reasons. We all know people get hired for a variety of reasons. Looks, gender, who you know, are just a few of the reasons people get hired, or not hired.

So to suggest that the best are the only ones hired seems a little naive.

Your reasons might be someone else's excuses. If I get hired by a conference, it's because I think I deserved it. Someone who didn't get hired may say it's because I "looked right" or knew someone. Same thing if I work a state championship game. We can make excuses or we can go get what we want.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

We agree.

We don't agree!!! Your saying the ball was dead already before the whistle was blown to grant the T/O. I completely disagree with that.

Originally Posted by M&M

Actually, the complete wording of 6-7-5 says the "The ball becomes dead,or remains dead when...(Art. 5) an official's whistle is blown."

Becomes dead when granting a T/O with the whistle. Is dead already when a FOUL happens before the whistle as outline in RULE 6-7. Big difference between the two the "action" of the FOUL has nothing to do with the action of the request.

Originally Posted by M&M

Add that to the Rules Fundamental #16 - "The officials' whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead; it is already dead."

Seldom doesn't mean NEVER. It would be dead when a FOUL happens. According to rule 6-7 this would be dead without a whistle . Its not already dead or dead when a request of a T/O is recognized. If it was then it would be listed in Rule 6-7.

Originally Posted by M&M

This is also backed up by the case play 10.1.6, that actually tells us that we still act upon the "action", and we still make the call, even though the whistle didn't blow in time.

We act on the action if it is a FOUL. This case play has to do with a player who illegally enters, becomes a legal player, when recognized by the official on the floor would be a FOUL, dead ball(Technical) Rule 6-7 states that the ball is dead when a FOUL happens. Your using a foul case play to validate your claim that the ball becomes dead when we hear/see a request for a T/O. These two have nothing to do with one another. Again Case play 10.1.7 clearly states that there has to be a request and then it would have to be granted.

Originally Posted by M&M

All of these things together make it pretty clear to me that it is not the whistle that causes the ball to become dead, it is the "action".

Only in the situations listed in Rule 6-7. The action of the Foul being listed. Nothing @ all mentioned about the "action" of the requesting. If that was the case then 10.1.7 would only say the the request is relevant.

Originally Posted by M&M

In the case play, the "action" is a foul; in our sitch, the "action" is the official granting the TO. The whistle is simply a signal to let everyone know. Can you give me any rule or case play backing that says granting a TO is done only by blowing the whistle?

Rule 5-8-3. The timer would stop the clock when the T/O is granted. In order for him to stop the clock there would have to be a whistle. This tells me that the granting is the whistle. When is the T/O granted? How does the timer know when to stop the clock? When does the ball become dead? In this situation ,thats not a foul, when the WHISTLE blows.

Originally Posted by M&M

In the example of the player falling OOB while requesting a TO, if you somehow didn't have the whistle in your mouth, would you not grant the TO simply because you didn't blow the whistle before they landed OOB? I would grant the TO in this case. Even better, would they not be considered OOB when they landed because you didn't blow the whistle? Of course not.

First of all I would NEVER have my whistle out of my mouth. But for the sake of this debate lets say it slips out while the player is falling OOB. I guarantee you that I will be quick enough to get the whistle in my mouth with air coming out before the player is CLEARLY OOB.

You keep listing dead ball plays that are all listed in Rule 6-7. The OOB play being specifically listed in Rule 6-7-9. So your right the play would be OOB with a DEAD ball when the violation happens, dead before the whistle. In all of the situations listed in Rule 6-7 except for the whistle the ball is dead without a whistle. The T/O request isn't listed so the only way the ball can become dead is with the WHISTLE.

This just simply isn't handled the same way a foul or violation is as far as when the ball becomes dead. The whistle is the key to the T/O situation. If in the OP they would've went to the monitor they would have put the time on the clock that was visible when the whistle blew not when they see a visual signal or when they hear the coach call it.

[M&M Guy]

Gimlet25id - to save some time, I'm not going to go through all the quotes, but let me address some specifics:

First, we do agree that the TO doesn't happen on the request. I have never stated it does; I have always agreed the TO happens on the granting. It is a two-step process - the coach/player makes the request, the official grants. The question is when does the granting occur? I contend it is when I say/think "Yes, I am granting this TO request". Usually, I blow the whistle and signal for the clock to stop at that moment. In rare instances, the whistle doesn't get blown at the exact moment. The question between us is whether the granting occurs only at the whistle, or at my physically/mentally saying "Yes, granted." The rule only says granted, and there is no direct connection between "granting" and "blowing the whistle", other than you blow the whistle as a signal to the timer to stop the clock, because you are granting a TO request.

I contend there are many instances that allow for the ball to become dead, even though the whistle hasn't blown. I am making that assumption from the various rule and case statements allowing for that. You are saying that granting a TO request isn't specifically listed in 6-7 as a way for the ball to become dead, like it would for a foul or violation. I agree, I am using a slight leap to get to my conclusion. But you are also using a slight leap to get to your conclusion the granting only happens at the whistle.

In the example of the player falling OOB, you didn't answer my question directly about whether you would still allow the TO if you didn't get the whistle blown before the violation. In that case, if for some reason I didn't get the whistle blown, but I knew the request was legal according to 5-8-3, I would still grant the TO. I would sell the heck out of the call, but no one would argue the TO should not happen only because I didn't blow the whistle in time. What if a player bumped into you at that moment, knocking the whistle out of your mouth, and you didn't get back in your mouth in time? Do you not grant the TO? Would it make a difference if it was a teammate of the player requesting TO? How about an opponent? Would you tell Coach A, "Sorry, I can't grant the TO because B1 knocked the whistle out of my mouth, and I couldn't get it blown soon enough."?

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Your reasons might be someone else's excuses. If I get hired by a conference, it's because I think I deserved it. Someone who didn't get hired may say it's because I "looked right" or knew someone. Same thing if I work a state championship game. We can make excuses or we can go get what we want.

I agree in priniciple with your general philosophy.

Having said that I believe we can agree that "going and getting what you want" as a philosophy does have limitations. The examples I could list are numerous.

This debate has been hammered out lots of times before so.....

I still see some hiring done on good ole boyism, gender, race, looks, etc.

To suggest it doesn't happen just seems to me a little "idealistic".

[tomegun]

Can a moderator delete/alter Chess Ref's post above? It isn't so much that he/she said anything offensive as much as it is a question I think should be asked will get the thread locked anyway.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

First, you are right that the "request" doesn't stop play, the "granting" does. When does that "granting" actually happen? That has been debated in the past, but I contend it's when I mentally grant it, not specifically when the whistle blows.

So if you recognize the request of an excessive timeout and the buzzer beats your whistle, do you call this a technical or not?

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I contend it is when I say/think "Yes, I am granting this TO request". Usually, I blow the whistle and signal for the clock to stop at that moment. In rare instances, the whistle doesn't get blown at the exact moment. The question between us is whether the granting occurs only at the whistle, or at my physically/mentally saying "Yes, granted." The rule only says granted, and there is no direct connection between "granting" and "blowing the whistle", other than you blow the whistle as a signal to the timer to stop the clock, because you are granting a TO request.

We are obviously going to agree to disagree on this. I think the rules are pretty clear, although one has to look in a couple of different places to make the determination.

As stated before, Rule 5-8-3 "...Grants a player's/head coach's oral or visual request for a T/O..." The timer has no idea if you mentally granted it first. In fact since the clock won't stop until you blow your whistle, nor the ball won't/can't be dead in this instance until you blow your whistle then it certainly stands to reason that the granting of the T/O is on the whistle. The whistle would be the signal that alerts everyone involved that play is dead, the time should stop, and when the clock should stop.

If your saying that you mentally grant first and acknowledge it second with the whistle implies that you think the ball is dead or would have to be dead when you mentally grant the T/O. If you believe the ball to be dead then your saying that in the OP play with time running out, you hear the HC call the excessive T/O, you mentally "grant" it, horn goes goes off, & you blow your whistle there should be a penalty. Are you seriously saying that your going back to penalize the excessive T/O and adding time back on the clock since you mentally granted it first even though th whistle didn't sound before the horn?

The answer has to be NO!!! Which has been my point all along with the ball not being dead until the whistle blows regardless if you think you mentally granted it first. There is absolutely nothing in the rule book anywhere that says the ball would be dead when an official hears the request and mentally grants it. In fact Rule 6-7 lets us know with out a doubt what makes the ball dead, in this case it would be on the whistle.

So if the ball isn't dead until the whistle then along with Rule 5-8 & 6-7, & the officials manual page 44 & under the diagram on page 45 gives us all of the info we need in order to rule correctly on the play. Page 44 covers the T/O procedures, sounding of the whistle, when not to "GRANT" and so on. Page 45's diagram gives the verb-age of, "when a T/O is granted the official shall...."

Like I said in my last post. If in the OP the crew went to the monitor to check the time, if they were to add time back, they would be looking for time on the clock when the WHISTLE was sounded, not on any visual signal from the coach or when the official said he heard the request. That would be the only way to do it since the whistle is what caused the ball to be dead.

Your case play 10.1.6 was totally different because it was a actual foul which by rule 6-7 causes the ball to be dead on the action of the foul. So if in the OP they had a foul @ the end of regulation then they would be adjusting the time to when the action of the foul happened and not the whistle. In FED basketball we don't have that luxury because we don't have courside monitors to use so all we can look for is that the clock stops correctly on the whistle.

Originally Posted by M&M

I contend there are many instances that allow for the ball to become dead, even though the whistle hasn't blown. I am making that assumption from the various rule and case statements allowing for that. You are saying that granting a TO request isn't specifically listed in 6-7 as a way for the ball to become dead, like it would for a foul or violation. I agree, I am using a slight leap to get to my conclusion. But you are also using a slight leap to get to your conclusion the granting only happens at the whistle.

I don't believe it to be a leap on my part. The thing I do know for sure is that the ball doesn't become dead when granting a T/O until you blow your whistle. That is specifically covered in Rule 6-7-5. To agree with your conclusion would have to mean that I think the ball is dead when we mentally grant the T/O and not on the actual whistle. Since I know that conclusion isn't rule supported, I have to believe that the actual granting is on the whistle.

Originally Posted by M&M

What if a player bumped into you at that moment, knocking the whistle out of your mouth, and you didn't get back in your mouth in time? Do you not grant the TO? Would it make a difference if it was a teammate of the player requesting TO? How about an opponent? Would you tell Coach A, "Sorry, I can't grant the TO because B1 knocked the whistle out of my mouth, and I couldn't get it blown soon enough."?

I see your point here, even though it is extremely unlikely that it would ever happen. If this 1 in a million play happens then I'm like you, I would feel compelled to grant the T/O. My verb-age to the opposing coach would be that as I was starting to put air in the whistle so & so knocked my whistle out of my mouth.

I really don't think that would ever happen, although not impossible, but if it does then I'm going to sell the hell out of the call and explain accordingly. With that being said the ball still wouldn't be dead until the sounding of my whistle or if the player landed OOB. It would then be up to me how I would handle the request, bump/body block, losing whistle play.

Edit; In the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter when either you or I think the T/O is granted, mentally or on the whistle. The important thing to realize in this play is that I can't make a timing correction unless the whistle was clearly before the horn. If I don't have the whistle before the horn the the ball was dead @ the horn and before the (As you believe) signal of the T/O was given. There is nothing in the rules that allow us to go back and add time just because we heard the request before the horn went off unless we had a whistle before the horn which makes the ball dead, RIGHT THEN.