Who Do I Give Credit To ??

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

we both agree that it is Blue ball, and that not only is the arrow on the scoreboard incorrect, it's inconsequenstial, because an '"official" arrow must be kept at the table, which it wasn't, so I had the scorekeeper use a pen at the table to point the alternating possession for the rest of the game.

We instruct our officials not to start a game without a visible arrow of some kind at the table. If you have to make something up, do so. That helps stop situations like this. The scorer still might make a mistake, but at least you have a reference.

We also tell our officials to remind the scorer(s) pre-game to keep track of the held balls, as required under the rules.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

We instruct our officials not to start a game without a visible arrow of some kind at the table. If you have to make something up, do so. That helps stop situations like this. The scorer still might make a mistake, but at least you have a reference.

We also tell our officials to remind the scorer(s) pre-game to keep track of the held balls, as required under the rules.

And if an arrow is not available; use a bottle of water as the arrow

[just another ref]

No matter where the "official" arrow is or isn't, how does an official overrule the scorer on which way the arrow should be pointed. 2-11-7: The scorer shall record the jump balls......and be responsible for the possession arrow.

[grunewar]

At the 8th grade, MS, and rec level where I do most of my reffing, if I relied on the table I'd be in a world of hurt! It's so good to have competent people working the table and when I get one - like several times today, for me, it's refreshing!

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by just another ref

No matter where the "official" arrow is or isn't, how does an official overrule the scorer on which way the arrow should be pointed. 2-11-7: The scorer shall record the jump balls......and be responsible for the possession arrow.

Fine and dandy for HS and above, but for MS and CYO where scorers are volunteer parents and kids, I bet if you asked them who they had in the book for the next posession, they wouldn't be able to say since they don't track it. Then what do you do?

Me, I can fit 22 AP situations across one of my game sheets, so pre-game, I'll put abbreviations such as "W B W B ..." across the bottom. I'll circle the team with the first possession and record the # who won the tap and then slash out all AP situations with the time except for quarter throw-ins (those get circled with the quarter number).

I use the two out of the next three line any chance I get, too.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by just another ref

No matter where the "official" arrow is or isn't, how does an official overrule the scorer on which way the arrow should be pointed. 2-11-7: The scorer shall record the jump balls......and be responsible for the possession arrow.

My tangent detector just went DING DING DING. Better re-read the initial post.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

My tangent detector just went DING DING DING. Better re-read the initial post.

I wasn't necessarily referring to the initial post, but if I am not mistaken I have heard others refer to keeping up with it, and overruling the arrow when necessary.

[Adam]

I've overruled the table on this. I've had cases where the table has obviuosly missed one, because they're wanting to give it to the team who just got it. Just had it today, actually.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I've overruled the table on this. I've had cases where the table has obviuosly missed one, because they're wanting to give it to the team who just got it. Just had it today, actually.

I've questioned the table many times. "Hey, we just had one going that way."
It has never failed to work out. "Oh, yeah, forgot to change it." "Oh, didn't see the signal on that last play." etc. But, I'm asking, if you keep up with it the whole game by changing the item in the pocket or whatever, and it comes to pass that you have one thing and the scorer has the other, and the scorer won't back down, what do you do then?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by just another ref

No matter where the "official" arrow is or isn't, how does an official overrule the scorer on which way the arrow should be pointed. 2-11-7: The scorer shall record the jump balls......and be responsible for the possession arrow.

I don't know "how", but my crew did it last week in a BV game. We knew the last held ball had gone to white, but table had white ball to start 2nd quarter. Both books agreed white. But we knew it was red ball.

The table protested, but we were certain. We figured out later that they mistook an OOB violation for a held ball at the end of the 1st quarter.

I don't know if it's "legal" to overturn the book in this situation, but we did it.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

I don't know "how", but my crew did it last week in a BV game. We knew the last held ball had gone to white, but table had white ball to start 2nd quarter. Both books agreed white. But we knew it was red ball.

The table protested, but we were certain. We figured out later that they mistook an OOB violation for a held ball at the end of the 1st quarter.

I don't know if it's "legal" to overturn the book in this situation, but we did it.

Sounds to me like a bookkeeping error, and those can be remedied any time up until the final score is approved.

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Sounds to me like a bookkeeping error, and those can be remedied any time up until the final score is approved.

I know what you mean, but an AP arrow error can only be corrected until the ball is awarded for another AP throw in, no?

If the game was in the 4th quarter and it was discovered that team A should have had an AP throw in to start the 3rd quarter, but team B got the throw-in, that cannot be corrected.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Stat-Man

I know what you mean, but an AP arrow error can only be corrected until the ball is awarded for another AP throw in, no?

If the game was in the 4th quarter and it was discovered that team A should have had an AP throw in to start the 3rd quarter, but team B got the throw-in, that cannot be corrected.

You are correct, the window of opportunity to correct the arrow is more limited than the final score being approved. It would be until the AP throw-in is touched on the court, I believe. But even with that correction, it's a bookkeeping error and can be corrected within the appropriate window of opportunity.