How many flops?

[blindzebra]

It is VERY COMMON for the flopper to cause contact with flailing arms and legs extended outside their normal frame...can you even have a normal frame while on the floor?

So to simply say no contact no foul is way outside the reality of the situation.

A better way to see it is some contact, that would not have happened without the flop, that while minimal was caused by a questionable act and is a safety issue for the players in the area and the flopper too.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Years ago I had a boys' H.S. varisty game where Team B had a 6'-08" (B5) center who was a pretty good player. Team B like to play a 2-3 zone defense with the big guy anchoring the middle of the back row. Early in the 1st quarter Team A's 5'-08" (A1) point guard drove the lane, B5 bailed out and fell flat on his back. He looked up at me with the look on his face that said who could that not be a charge. As we went back up the court I told B5 that if he wanted the charge he had to stop being a wuss and stay in there and take the charge like a man. He laughed said I was right and took three charges in the 1st half.

MTD, Sr.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

It is VERY COMMON for the flopper to cause contact with flailing arms and legs extended outside their normal frame...can you even have a normal frame while on the floor?

So to simply say no contact no foul is way outside the reality of the situation.

A better way to see it is some contact, that would not have happened without the flop, that while minimal was caused by a questionable act and is a safety issue for the players in the area and the flopper too.

I think I speak for us all when I say "Huh?" A flopper who commits a foul is no longer a flopper but merely a defender who committed a foul by using poor defensive technique. As for the safety issue because of a questionable act I believe I would need some more information.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I think I speak for us all when I say "Huh?" A flopper who commits a foul is no longer a flopper but merely a defender who committed a foul by using poor defensive technique. As for the safety issue because of a questionable act I believe I would need some more information.

If I need to explain the danger a prone player under the basket presents to him/herself and others to you, you probably have no business officiating.

[Adam]

I've called the flop T once, in a little kids YMCA game. Gave him a warning, and his coach, the first time. He grunted and fell backwards 3 feet before contact.

Next chance he had, he grunted and fell backwards 4 feet before contact. I called the T. He stopped doing it.

Today in a boys AAU game, my partner had a great charge call. Big kid driving the lane, jumped pretty high towards a point guard-sized defender who'd been in position since Tuesday. As A1 is in the air, B1 turns sideways to brace himself for the pending train wreck. Partner comes out with a strong PC signal, A Coach is complaining that he turned/flopped. It wasn't a flop, and he never gave up his lgp.

My question to the OP. How was it that B1 gave up his LGP in your play?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

If I need to explain the danger a prone player under the basket presents to him/herself and others to you, you probably have no business officiating.

A sweet sentiment to be sure, but not one supported by rule. If a player chooses to lie on the floor anywhere on the court, there is no NFHS rule which prohibits him from doing so. If he flops, call a T. If he commits a foul while flopping, call that. But the fact that he winds up on the floor has no bearing on the play.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A sweet sentiment to be sure, but not one supported by rule. If a player chooses to lie on the floor anywhere on the court, there is no NFHS rule which prohibits him from doing so. If he flops, call a T. If he commits a foul while flopping, call that. But the fact that he winds up on the floor has no bearing on the play.

What does a player on the floor presenting a danger have to do with rules?

I said it presented a danger...newsflash it does...not that it presenting a danger makes it a foul in and of itself. Do try to keep up.

[Rita C]

Men's rec. I had players flop one night. Not only was it obvious, the flopper immediately looked to me and when he didn't get a call, gave me that look I used to get from my son when he was faking and I didn't fall for it.

Didn't happen again. They got back to playing ball.

Rita

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

What does a player on the floor presenting a danger have to do with rules?

I said it presented a danger...newsflash it does...not that it presenting a danger makes it a foul in and of itself. Do try to keep up.

So to simply say no contact no foul is way outside the reality of the situation.

A better way to see it is some contact, that would not have happened without the flop, that while minimal was caused by a questionable act and is a safety issue for the players in the area and the flopper too.

Pardon me. I read between the lines to say that you might be influenced to call this a foul with an amount of contact that was not sufficient to make this call if not for the resulting unsafe situation. So if not that, then what was the point of mentioning the safety issue? Just trying to keep up.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Pardon me. I read between the lines to say that you might be influenced to call this a foul with an amount of contact that was not sufficient to make this call if not for the resulting unsafe situation. So if not that, then what was the point of mentioning the safety issue? Just trying to keep up.

Some will have us all believe that judgment and rule application lives in a vacuum and go ape spit over concepts like flopping is a block.

What I was saying was that in reality rarely does a flopper go down without some residual contact. Also in reality most officials have a difficult time with the punishment fitting the crime for a flop...much like it was with elbow swinging and leaving the floor before both became violations...so until the NFHS wises up and makes flopping a common foul or violation, many, and I'll bet in practice, most officials find some contact to punish the flopper for their unsafe and unsporting act.

[crazy voyager]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Do you think that using a completely different ruleset might just have a little bit to do with that?

POssibly yes, but flopping is a Technical foul under fiba rules as well... I am not certain what the NCAA and NFHS rulings are but I think the rule is acctually quite similar.
How ever I do belive there is a diffrent mentality in europe when it comes to flopping in comparison to the us