Homework

[Da Official]

I was reffing a Girls Varsity game last night and the following 2 scenarios took place. My partner called violations but I thought they both were legal plays. After the game I talked to him about the plays and said I would try to get the applicable rules and cases for him.

What rule/case do we have for:

Scenario #1: Player A1 is dribbling ball in front court. She attempts a drop off pass where she slightly taps the ball to another player A2. Unfortunately A1 and A2 or not on the same page and A1 has to retrieve the pass/fumble and continued to dribble. Note she never picked the ball up at any time.

Partner stops play and calls a double dribble (because "she attempted a pass" his words)


Scenario #2: Team A is has a throw-in underneath the basket in the front court. A1 throws a high pass to A2 who jumps in the air and touches the ball but it continues past her into the backcourt. A2 runs into the backcourt to get it. Before A2 touches the ball Coach A says "once you touch it, its backcourt". I am the Trail and run back with A2. A2 then begins to dribble the loose ball. I hold my whistle because I am thinking to myself team control was not established until A2 started dribbling, my partner calls a backcourt violation from the other side of the division line. No one complained but I felt that was not the right call.


I have looked through the Rule and Case this morning and couldn't find anything specific to these....but I'm sure my research was lacking.

Can the brothers help me out?

[zebraman]

If I understand your first scenario correctly, A1 never stopped dribbling so you have no violation. You won't find a case play that exactly addresses it. It's just a dribble that never ceased.

Your second scenario is addressed in case play 4.12.6 (b). No violation because there is no team control on a throw-in and A2's touch did not constitute control.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Da Official

Scenario #1: Player A1 is dribbling ball in front court. She attempts a drop off pass where she slightly taps the ball to another player A2. Unfortunately A1 and A2 or not on the same page and A1 has to retrieve the pass/fumble and continued to dribble. Note she never picked the ball up at any time.

Partner stops play and calls a double dribble (because "she attempted a pass" his words)


Scenario #2: Team A is has a throw-in underneath the basket in the front court. A1 throws a high pass to A2 who jumps in the air and touches the ball but it continues past her into the backcourt. A2 runs into the backcourt to get it. Before A2 touches the ball Coach A says "once you touch it, its backcourt". I am the Trail and run back with A2. A2 then begins to dribble the loose ball. I hold my whistle because I am thinking to myself team control was not established until A2 started dribbling, my partner calls a backcourt violation from the other side of the division line. No one complained but I felt that was not the right call.

Can the brothers help me out?

I don't know about the brothers -- you know how men are. But here's a sister who might help.

I'd say neither was a violation, but your first case depends on your definition of "picking the ball up". If she attempted the pass by one-handedly bouncing the ball to her teammate, and then retrieved it in the same one-handed way, it's definitely not a violation. It may or may not be a fumble, but even if it's not a fumble, the dribble never ended, since she did never touched it with two hands, nor palmed/carried.

Second case: no team control in frontcourt, tip doesn't count as team control.

[mick]

Originally Posted by zebraman

If I understand your first scenario correctly, A1 never stopped dribbling so you have no violation. You won't find a case play that exactly addresses it. It's just a dribble that never ceased.

Your second scenario is addressed in case play 4.12.6 (b). No violation because there is no team control on a throw-in and A2's touch did not constitute control.

One could easily apply:

4.15.4 Situation D (b)
4-15-4

[JS 20]

If you were the trail in scenario 2, and your partner called BC violation on that as the L. I would get together with him, tell him it's your call, it's not a violation and have him change it to an inadvertant whistle and go from there. Then at halftime or after the game I'd have a nice chat w/ him about it.

[mick]

Originally Posted by JS 20

If you were the trail in scenario 2, and your partner called BC violation on that as the L. I would get together with him, tell him it's your call, it's not a violation and have him change it to an inadvertant whistle and go from there. Then at halftime or after the game I'd have a nice chat w/ him about it.

I wouldn't do that unless he asked for help and wanted to be bailed out.
I would be concerned about getting in a prolonged rules discussion in front of God, and everybody, and then looking even more stoopid.
I would do the chat thing, though.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by mick

I wouldn't do that unless he asked for help and wanted to be bailed out.
I would be concerned about getting in a prolonged rules discussion in front of God, and everybody, and then looking even more stoopid.
I would do the chat thing, though.

If I'm T, and my partner calls backcourt from L, and I'm certain he's wrong, I'm going to go get it correct.

And it's not going to be prolonged, it's going to be something along the lines of, "We got that one wrong, there was no team control in the frontcourt, it's my call, we're giving the ball back to A." And I'd leave and inbound the ball.

I'm not going to let my partner call something that is 100% wrong from the wrong position and then not correct it.

[mick]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

If I'm T, and my partner calls backcourt from L, and I'm certain he's wrong, I'm going to go get it correct.

And it's not going to be prolonged, it's going to be something along the lines of, "We got that one wrong, there was no team control in the frontcourt, it's my call, we're giving the ball back to A." And I'd leave and inbound the ball.

I'm not going to let my partner call something that is 100% wrong from the wrong position and then not correct it.

I still wouldn't do it.
If you flex your muscles, what's to prevent your partner from reflex?
What about the travel (partner called) that wasn't a travel.
What about the block where the defender was perfectly verticle?
Tough lines to draw once you start.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by mick

I still wouldn't do it.
If you flex your muscles, what's to prevent your partner from reflex?
What about the travel (partner called) that wasn't a travel.
What about the block where the defender was perfectly verticle?
Tough lines to draw once you start.

I understand the concerns. What separates the scenario we're talking about from all of yours is that it is possible to be 100% certain on the outcome. This is kicking a rule - not a mistake in judgement or a different angle that shows something different.

It's not tough at all to draw this line, IMO.

[mick]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

I understand the concerns. What separates the scenario we're talking about from all of yours is that it is possible to be 100% certain on the outcome. This is kicking a rule - not a mistake in judgement or a different angle that shows something different.

It's not tough at all to draw this line, IMO.

Sounds like you are pretty convinced that neither verticality nor traveling are rules, but merely judgement.
I won't dispute your opinion. I would rather avoid such a "prolonged discussion".

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by mick

Sounds like you are pretty convinced that neither verticality nor traveling are rules, but merely judgement.
I won't dispute your opinion. I would rather avoid such a "prolonged discussion".

Obviously both are rules. However, you must judge if a player remains vertical. Traveling is normally more clear cut, but there are times I don't see things right in front of me.

I look at it as what would my explanation be to a legitimate question about the call. In either the foul or the traveling situation, I can simply say, "My partner had a different angle. You can ask him when he gets over here." In the scenario we're discussing here, that answer simply doesn't work.

It's not a huge deal, IMO, as this is something that rarely happens. But, if it happens in my (should be) competitive BV game tonight, I'm going to make sure we get it right.

[Beemer]

Originally Posted by mick

...verticality...

What page can I find this word in the rule book? It appears in many dictionaries, but I don't believe in any rules book.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Beemer

What page can I find this word in the rule book? It appears in many dictionaries, but I don't believe in any rules book.

Page 41, 95.

[jcarter]

Originally Posted by Beemer

What page can I find this word in the rule book? It appears in many dictionaries, but I don't believe in any rules book.

Rule 4

Section 45: Verticality


Art. 1 Legal guarding position must be obtained initially and movement thereafter ... More
Art. 2 From this position, the defender may rise or jump vertically and occupy the... More
Art. 3 The hands and arms of the defender may be raised within his/her vertical pl... More
Art. 4 The defender should not be penalized for leaving the floor vertically or ha... More
Art. 5 The offensive player whether on the floor or airborne, may not “clear out” ... More
Art. 6 . The defender may not “belly up” or use the lower part of the body or arms t... More
Art. 7 The player with the ball is to be given no more protection or consideration... More

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Beemer

... but I don't believe in any rules book....