Way Too Many "Players" Warming Up

[BillyMac]

I got a question from a junior varsity official, that I can't answer definitively, so I decided to go to the Forum for help.

The offical steps onto the court and begins observing the junior varsity players warming up before the junior varsity game. He observes that there seems to be way too many players, from one team, warming up. As the referee, he goes to check the book before the ten minute mark, and sure enough, there are a lot more players warming up, than are in the book. He questions the junior varsity coach about this, who replies that the varsity players are also warming up with the junior varsity team, as they "always" do. The referee requests that the varsity players leave the court, after which the varsity coach interjects by saying that the varsity players "always" do this, but he pulls his varsity players off the court.

Other than NFHS 2-3 "The referee shall make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules", is there a rule that deals with situation, or is this a situation that doesn't need to be dealt with, in other words, ignore it? What about a liability issue if the official allows this and a varsity player gets injured during the junior varsity warmups? Does the defintion of a "player" impact this situation?

[Gimlet25id]

Pre game warm-ups are for only the team that is playing. What do you do if you let the varsity squad warm-up with the JV and the V-player dunks the ball?

Who are you going to charge the "T" to?

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Pre game warm-ups are for only the team that is playing. What do you do if you let the varsity squad warm-up with the JV and the V-player dunks the ball?

Who are you going to charge the "T" to?

It's a team technical. Whether or not that dunk-er is a "player", he's on the floor and he's responsible to follow the rules, and the coach is responsible too, when he doesn't. If the coach doesn't like starting the game with shots by the opponent, then he can get those kids under control.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Pre game warm-ups are for only the team that is playing. What do you do if you let the varsity squad warm-up with the JV and the V-player dunks the ball? Who are you going to charge the "T" to?

I agree, but are there rules to support this?

[Snake~eyes]

I don't have rulebooks ATM, but I am going to make a small point.

What if the coach is warming up with the players? I have seen coaches bounce balls to players in specific drills, are you going to disallow this too? Afterall, the coach is not listed in the book.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Snake~eyes

I don't have rulebooks ATM,

Rulebooks ATM? Wow, NFHS goes from complete secrecy to total open access. Cool!!

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

It's a team technical. Whether or not that dunk-er is a "player", he's on the floor and he's responsible to follow the rules, and the coach is responsible too, when he doesn't. If the coach doesn't like starting the game with shots by the opponent, then he can get those kids under control.

I agree that the coach should be responsible for the conduct of non team personnel. However this would usually fall to game management to control. If a "TEAM MEMBER," dunks in warm-ups then its charged to that player then indirectly to the coach.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I agree, but are there rules to support this?

The only references to the warm ups that I can find is in the manual. Duties to include checking legality of uniforms, # of each member, etc... The diagram specifically say home team & visiting team. I would say that is pretty clear as to who is to be on the floor.

Originally Posted by snakeeyes

What if the coach is warming up with the players? I have seen coaches bounce balls to players in specific drills, are you going to disallow this too? Afterall, the coach is not listed in the book.

The coach is still part of the team even though he/she isn't in the book.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I am going to jump into this one with both feet and my eyes wide open.

1) The HC of the jr. varsity team is responsible for players warming up at his team's basketball before the start of the game. It is not game management's problem.

2) If the jr. varsity HC wants to let the varsity players warm-up with the JV players, I do not care. I only care about the number of names in the socrebook at the ten minute mark. I do not care if I count fifteen players and ten names in the scorebook because five VAR players are warming up; it is not my problem. The tean has submitted their roster and they have to live by what they have in the scorebook.

3) If one of those VAR players dunks the ball prior to the ten minute mark, then that player, JV head coach, JV team will suffer the consequences. TF charged directly to the VAR player, TF charged indirectly to the JV head coach (and he loses the coaching box if the game is in a state where the coaching box is used), one team foul charged to the JV team's 7 and 10 foul team totals. And the VAR player's name will have to be added to the roster when it is submitted prior to the ten minute mark.

4) If one of those VAR players dunks the ball after the ten minute mark, then that player, JV head coach, JV team will suffer the consequences. TF charged directly to the VAR player, TF charged indirectly to the JV head coach (and he loses the coaching box if the game is in a state where the coaching box is used), adminstrative TF charged to the JV team for adding a player to its roster after the ten minute mark (the VAR player's name has to be added to the roster). Therefore two team fouls are charged to the JV team's 7 and 10 foul team totals. BUT if one can prove by rule that there should not be and administrative TF charged to the JV team I can live with that too.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

I agree that the coach should be responsible for the conduct of non team personnel. However this would usually fall to game management to control. If a "TEAM MEMBER," dunks in warm-ups then its charged to that player then indirectly to the coach.

Gimlet:

Where in the world did you ever get the idea the Game Management is responsible for the VAR players in this situation. I am sorry,but that is just absurd to make such a statement.

MTD, Sr.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

3) TF charged directly to the VAR player, And the VAR player's name will have to be added to the roster when it is submitted prior to the ten minute mark.

4) If one of those VAR players dunks the ball after the ten minute mark, TF charged directly to the VAR player, TF charged indirectly to the JV head coach (and he loses the coaching box if the game is in a state where the coaching box is used), adminstrative TF charged to the JV team for adding a player to its roster after the ten minute mark (the VAR player's name has to be added to the roster). .

I agree with everything you said except these things. I'm not sure I disagree with these, but I'm trying to figure out where you came up with them. Is this a 2-3 thing?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I agree with everything you said except these things. I'm not sure I disagree with these, but I'm trying to figure out where you came up with them. Is this a 2-3 thing?

Juulie:

I don't necessarily disagree with you. You are charging a player with TF, so his name should end up in the book is the logic I am using. Having said that if a ruling comes down that we are not to put the players name in the book, I can live with that too. I think it is just a speed bump among the mountains of life.

MTD, Sr.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Juulie:

I don't necessarily disagree with you. You are charging a player with TF, so his name should end up in the book is the logic I am using. Having said that if a ruling comes down that we are not to put the players name in the book, I can live with that too. I think it is just a speed bump among the mountains of life.

MTD, Sr.

Yea, putting a senior's name into the book, which will now force JV game to be forfeit perhaps, well, that's not a battle I'm willing to fight. Call the T, coach A gets the seatbelt, team B starts the game with two shots and the ball, that's enough to get the coach yelling at those idiot varsity players, imo. Maybe next time he'll be paying more attention to what's happening on his own end of the court.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Yea, putting a senior's name into the book, which will now force JV game to be forfeit perhaps, well, that's not a battle I'm willing to fight. Call the T, coach A gets the seatbelt, team B starts the game with two shots and the ball, that's enough to get the coach yelling at those idiot varsity players, imo. Maybe next time he'll be paying more attention to what's happening on his own end of the court.

Juulie:

How would putting a senior's name in the JV book cause a forfeit?

MTD, Sr.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Gimlet:

Where in the world did you ever get the idea the Game Management is responsible for the VAR players in this situation. I am sorry,but that is just absurd to make such a statement.

MTD, Sr.

Come on MTD read the entire post. That was in response to Rainmakers post...that it doesn't matter if the dunker is a player. Its a little ABSURD to make a comment without reading the context of the entire post. (IMHO)

Originally Posted by Rainmaker

It's a team technical. Whether or not that dunk-er is a "player", he's on the floor and he's responsible to follow the rules, and the coach is responsible too, when he doesn't. If the coach doesn't like starting the game with shots by the opponent, then he can get those kids under control.

Assuming the player wasn't on the playing team (JV Team). It still begs the question what if you do allow the varsity members to warm up with the JV team and a Varsity member dunks? How would you penalize it?

I'm thinking @ that time he isn't a player for that game. He's not going to be bench personnel either. So really he's nothing more then a fan @ that time.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

It's a team technical. Whether or not that dunk-er is a "player", he's on the floor and he's responsible to follow the rules, and the coach is responsible too, when he doesn't. If the coach doesn't like starting the game with shots by the opponent, then he can get those kids under control.

A team is defined in rule 4-34. The people that you want to nail aren't part of the team. The head coach is responsible for bench personnel(10-4) also so you can't nail him. Anybody else is a "spectator" and home management is responsible for them. Rule 2-8-1NOTE. You can penalize a team's followers, but it generally isn't recommended.

Just go to home management and get them to remove everybody not connected to the team from the court.

There's old threads around on this one iirc.