Help with this one

[Back In The Saddle]

As always, had to be there. But speaking generally.....

Dead ball contact is ignored unless it's intentional or flagrant. In your case it certainly sounds intentional. But it doesn't sound flagrant from your description. There was no punch thrown. There was no attempt to injure. So call the intentional T. If the coach is smart he/she will sit A1 for a good, long while. If the coach isn't that bright, and you think there may be more trouble brewing, have a very direct chat with A1 and let her know that she now has your full attention and if she steps out of line again, even a little, she'll be done for the night.

As always, just my $0.02.

[truerookie]

Just amazing:

Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting inlcudes, but is not limited to combative acts such as:

art.1 An attempt to strike, punch or kick an opponent with a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made. Clear to me up to this point.

art 2. An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act toward an opponent that causes an opponent to retaliate by fighting. Hasn't change; still clear to me.

What the OP describe is fighting by feds rules. It does not state how severe it must be.

I'm not for keeping a player in the game for an senseless act on their behalf and I wouldn't encourage others to take that same approach when it comes to FIGHTING!!!!!

[ca_rumperee]

Dead ball push by A1 on B1. I rule it to warrant an Intentional Technical foul, but if B1 responds to the push by fighting, A1's "non-flagrant" push now becomes a Flagrant Technical foul because their action led to the fight.

Or, if after my 2nd whistle, B1 pushed back with a similar "don't push me" kind of push, but not an "it's on b!tch!" kind of push... then what do we have? I would think this is NOT a double technical, but rather two consecutive technicals.

Team B would shoot the one-and-one with lane cleared.
Team B would shoot the technical with lane cleared.
Team A would shoot the technical with lane cleared.
Team A has ball for throw-in at division line.

That is the way I read it, fortunately it has yet to happen to me.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Just amazing:

Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting inlcudes, but is not limited to combative acts such as:

art.1 An attempt to strike, punch or kick an opponent with a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made. Clear to me up to this point.

art 2. An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act toward an opponent that causes an opponent to retaliate by fighting. Hasn't change; still clear to me.

What the OP describe is fighting by feds rules. It does not state how severe it must be.

I'm not for keeping a player in the game for an senseless act on their behalf and I wouldn't encourage others to take that same approach when it comes to FIGHTING!!!!!

How is the OP a fight??? Did not strike, punch, or kick...action did not lead to retaliation by the opponent...therefore, NOT a fight. I'm not sure that you are as clear on these points as you seem to think you are.

[Nevadaref]

truerookie,
You need to review the definition of a flagrant foul. Fighting comes under that as it is deemed a flagrant act.
I don't consider a shove to be either violent or savage in nature.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

How is the OP a fight??? Did not strike, punch, or kick therefore, NOT a fight. I'm not sure that you are as clear on these points as you seem to think you are.

Strike: To aim and deliver a blow, stroke, or thrust, with the hand; to come into contact forcefully

It could have been flagrant, or it could have been intentional. I guess that you had to be there.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by truerookie

art.1 An attempt to strike, punch or kick an opponent with a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made. Clear to me up to this point.

What the OP describe is fighting by feds rules. It does not state how severe it must be.

From the OP: A1 then two hand shoves B1

two hand shove != strike
two hand shove != punch
two hand shove != kick

A two-hand shove is not necessarily a fighting act... In the official's judgement it could be considered flagrant, but to say that it must be considered flagrant and fighting is a severe misinterpretation of the fight rule.

[Reffing Hoosier]

To clarify, it was a dead ball. I had not taken my eyes off of either girl. Everybody in the gym seen it I think!! The coach of the offender had no problem with the "t". However, I was a little dissapointed he did not remove her from the game or even call her over for a chat!

[deecee]

good call -- had a similar thing happen in a game this year and my partner did what you did. Him acting on it prevented a "possible" fight had we not dealt with the shove after the foul. Ended the game with the same player who shoved getting tossed for slamming the ball after I called a foul. He did that behind me and my partner picked it up.

gotta do what you gotta do

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Just amazing:

Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting inlcudes, but is not limited to combative acts such as:

art.1 An attempt to strike, punch or kick an opponent with a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made. Clear to me up to this point.

She did not strike, punch, or kick her. She shoved her.

art 2. An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act toward an opponent that causes an opponent to retaliate by fighting. Hasn't change; still clear to me.

The opponent did not retaliate by fighting, did she? No, she did not, so this isn't applicable either.

What the OP describe is fighting by feds rules. It does not state how severe it must be.

I'm not for keeping a player in the game for an senseless act on their behalf and I wouldn't encourage others to take that same approach when it comes to FIGHTING!!!!!

I don't think so.

[BillyMac]

[QUOTE=BktBallRefShe did not strike, punch, or kick her. She shoved her.[/QUOTE]

Strike: To come into contact forcefully.

How can a "shove" not be considered "forceful contact"?

Since the defination of "strike" includes "contact forcefully", then this must be considered a "strike".

However, again, I guess that you had to be there?

[tomegun]

BillyMac, are you saying a shove should be considered striking and a fight? If so, that would open a lot of contact up to being considered striking. Would that mean an intentional push that is called intentional at the end of a game would now be considered fighting and the player would be ejected? I'm trying to understand what you are saying. I'm actually trying to understand how a push becomes a fight.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by tomegun

BillyMac, are you saying a shove should be considered striking and a fight? If so, that would open a lot of contact up to being considered striking. Would that mean an intentional push that is called intentional at the end of a game would now be considered fighting and the player would be ejected? I'm trying to understand what you are saying. I'm actually trying to understand how a push becomes a fight.

Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting inlcudes, but is not limited to combative acts such as: art.1 An attempt to strike, punch or kick an opponent with a fist, hands, arms, legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made.

tomegun: You do make a good point about the intentional push, which most of us would simply call an intentional foul, not flagrant. Good point.

FYI: I've called two flagrant technical fouls in the past three seasons. The most recent one was in a girls varsity game where one player, after a held ball was called, slapped an opponent. The other also involved a held ball, in a boys varsity game, where after getting up, one player pushed his opponent with two hands squarely on the opponent's chest, sending the opponent back about a foot. Unfortunately, in both cases, I gave the baseball-style, "You're out of here" signal, which I know is not an approved NFHS signal, but for some reason, I did it anyway.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Strike: To come into contact forcefully.

How can a "shove" not be considered "forceful contact"?

It is possible to lay ones hand on something quite gently, and then give it a shove. To strike something and then follow through might result in a shove, but the two terms are not interchangeable.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Strike: To come into contact forcefully.

How can a "shove" not be considered "forceful contact"?

Since the defination of "strike" includes "contact forcefully", then this must be considered a "strike".

Hold on there. You're completely dropping key words in the defintion of strike.... to come into contact forcefully. It's how the contact is initiated that makes it a strike. If I softly put my hand on someone and then use it to shove them, it may be forceful contact but it is NOT a strike. A strike is like a punch but may be with an open hand, arm, etc.