What's a "Swim move"?

egausch · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 15, 2002, 09:58am

In the points of emphasis page(s) in the back of the NF rules book, it talks about the "swim move"? Can someone enlighten me here?
EG

Mark Dexter · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 15, 2002, 10:03am

Think the breaststroke above water.

Basically, a swim move is (in my mind, at least) when a player extends an arm and sweeps it back - usually as a part of boxing out.

ChuckElias · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 15, 2002, 10:08am

The swim stroke describes the motion an offensive player in the post uses to move the defender's arm out of his way.

Picture the offensive man on the block. The defender is to his side, but is holding an arm up in front of the offensive player, trying to deny the pass into the block. The offensive player can't get a good passing lane, so he raises his arm and brings it back down over the defender's arm. This swimming motion removes the defender's ability to deny the pass.

Chuck

Bart Tyson · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 15, 2002, 10:11am

It can be the Off. or Def. player. Off. posting up and has his arms out( could be legal or illegal) and the Def. sweeps his arm over the Off. player's arm to bring it down. Same thing except the Off. player sweeps back the Def. player's arm down.

egausch · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 15, 2002, 10:12am

I call this "clearing out" or "hooking" if just the upper arm and elbow is used. Do you think the refs will think me odd, well, more than usual, if I shout out " Hey, he's swimming down there!"

)
Thanks,
EG

Jim Armstrong · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 15, 2002, 10:25am

The NFHS rules review video, shows a perfect example of the swim move by an offensive player. I've watched it probably six times this year, and learn something everytime.

egausch · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 15, 2002, 10:41am

How would you describe the move on the video?
EG

rainmaker · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 15, 2002, 01:34pm

The book says to call the swim move as soon as it starts, but who starts it? In Chuck's example, the defender has the arm in illegal guarding position, right? So does he/she start it? Or is everything fine until the Offensive post player sweeps his/her arm into the front?

ChuckElias · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 15, 2002, 01:49pm

Juulie,

I'd say that the defender in my example, at least, has perfectly legal position. As long as he's not displacing the offensive player or holding his hands in front of the offensive player's face to cover his eyes, then I think he's playing good deny-defense. The foul occurs when (in my example) the offensive player sweeps the defender's arm away.

Chuck

rainmaker · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 15, 2002, 02:01pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Juulie,

I'd say that the defender in my example, at least, has perfectly legal position. As long as he's not displacing the offensive player or holding his hands in front of the offensive player's face to cover his eyes, then I think he's playing good deny-defense. The foul occurs when (in my example) the offensive player sweeps the defender's arm away.

Chuck

Chuck --

I'm gonna argue a little here, not to be testy, but to clarify in my own mind. How is the defender legal if her arms are out to the side? I thought this was not legal guarding position, and if there's any contact, it's that defender who has committed the foul.

juulie

ChuckElias · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 15, 2002, 02:44pm

Let me try to describe what I'm seeing in my head a little better. Imagine A1 on offense standing on the low block and facing directly toward the nearer sideline. Now picture B1 on defense facing A1 from the side, with B1's back parallel to the nearer endline. A1 and B1 are perpendicular to each other, if that makes sense. If B1 were to put both arms straight out in front of him, one arm would go directly in front of A1 and the other arm would go directly behind A1.

Positioned this way, if B1 puts an arm up in front of A1, he has pretty good defense against the entry pass. If A1 then knocks down B1's arm, that would be a "swim stroke".

I hope that helps a little. Maybe somebody else can describe it better.

Chuck

Slider · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 15, 2002, 03:37pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Positioned this way, if B1 puts an arm up in front of A1, he has pretty good defense against the entry pass. If A1 then knocks down B1's arm, that would be a "swim stroke".
]

I don't think I can describe it better, but now I need some clarification.

If A1 swims B1's arms per the above, then foul on A1.

However, exact same situation, if A1 were to reach for an incoming ball and contact arm-to-arm with B1 (preventing a catch), then we would call B1 for a foul wouldn't we?

Bart Tyson · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 15, 2002, 04:52pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Slider

However, exact same situation, if A1 were to reach for an incoming ball and contact arm-to-arm with B1 (preventing a catch), then we would call B1 for a foul wouldn't we? [/B]

It seems like there will be some contact when trying to get to the entry pass. When the def. steps to the side and then reaches to block the entry pass, then i give the benefit of doubt to the def.

paulis · #14 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 15, 2002, 11:56pm

Is someone using a tactic involving credit which gains them an advantage. Whether it is offense or defense, I am looking for anything, especially on the block, which is used to accomplish this and to call the foul on that player.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. · #15 (**permalink**) Sat Feb 16, 2002, 12:29am

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
The book says to call the swim move as soon as it starts, but who starts it? In Chuck's example, the defender has the arm in illegal guarding position, right? So does he/she start it? Or is everything fine until the Offensive post player sweeps his/her arm into the front?

The posting to which you are referring is Chuck's post in this thread:

"Picture the offensive man on the block. The defender is to his side, but is holding an arm up in front of the offensive player, trying to deny the pass into the block. The offensive player can't get a good passing lane, so he raises his arm and brings it back down over the defender's arm. This swimming motion removes the defender's ability to deny the pass."

Please explain to me how the defender's arm is in an illegal guarding position? The defender is allowed to hold his arm in a horizontal position as long is he does not cause illegal contact with it. I think that you are confusing the horizontal placement of the defender's arm with the principal of verticality. The play that Chuck describes above is legal. Now if the offensive player had decided to move toward his teammate (who has the ball), the defender must drop his arm as soon as the offensive player he is guarding starts to move against his arm. If the defender does not drop his arm then he is guilty of holding. But as Chuck described his play the offensive player is guilty of an illegal use of hands foul.

In the play that Chuck describes many times the offensive player raises his arm like a backstroker to move the defender's arm out of the way (this is a classic example of the swim stroke move).