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"the push was called, it just ended ugly with a handful of jersey"
The way I understand this, it was one continuous act. I would penalize the according to the most severe aspect of the play. That's the handful of jersey. |
Nevada...I've got to agree with you on most everything...
Apparently I'm the one confusing you with my description, let's try this B 's hand got stuck almost "in" the jersey, after the whistle had blown for the push. Obviously it won't make sense unless you see it, but there really was not an intentional foul there. We did take the chicken way out with the other t's but I think the other thing that crossed the R's mind was that the f-bomb does not merit an automatic flagrant in our area. Obviously given the climate of the situation, I think those were flagrants. We were doing a disservice to our fellow officials that work HS games on a regular basis. What if the head coach hadn't gone along with your request? Now you're threatening a forefit, which would be allowable if they were failing to comply with a technical foul. But in my opinion you haven't issued a valid technical at that point (not on a specific person) and you've also issued an invalid ultimatum. Granted at this point there's no NFHS rules concerning this. I agree that the NFHS needs to address these types of situations, bench decorum keeps on getting worse every year, especially from the assistants and other bench personnel. Adopting the NCAA rule would work for me. |
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1. Ask the Head Coach who did it. If she didn't know. Check with the Table they might be able to point you in the right direction.. 2.I would get the three Asst. Coaches together (if I'm 100% certain one of them is the culprit) and ask the guilty one to fess up. 3. If the offender doesn't step forward I would tell them I'm going to pick one and he will be the one ejected. Hopefully peer pressure will cause the guilty one to step forward. 4. If not I pick one at random and go from there. I'm glad I wasn't there. |
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So in order to give "justice" to the head coach we're going to take a chance on doing an injustice to a possibly not guilty Assistiant coach ? |
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The HC wasn't dumped until the third bench T (one direct, and two indirects.)
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Mark: agree with just about everything you wrote up until the forfeit part. Even under this sitch, don't. Travesty and refusal to play are about (there may be a few others -- like threats, but not this) the only things that are going to lead to an actual forfeit. The remedy here is the game report.
Don't compound a bad situation that you have nothing to do with by making yourself a target for criticism. You can justify all your calls, even if the judgment was questionable. If you forfeit this game, the coaches now have the "ability" to dodge any discussion of their behavior by bringing this up, and SOMEONE, justified or not, will listen. In other words, don't stretch a forfeit -- you either have good grounds for it, or you don't do it. If you have to ask, don't. |
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Texas: I probably should have written my feelings more clearly. The R has the final authority as to whether to forfeit a game or not to forfeit a game. If I am the R, while I have the final authority, unless I am working with a real moron, I will not take that action unilaterally. I will get together with my partners and we will discuss whether we need to forfeit the game or not, that is what I meant by polling my partners. But acting in the way the coaches did in this game surely comes close to being a travesty. Their conduct was completely unacceptable. Item (1): I don't understand this position. Why in Hades name would I care about any criticism I receive. Do you think I really care what some Howler Monkey Coach thinks or any irrational fan or an idiot sports reporter thinks. Item (2): This statement makes no sense. Who made the forfeiture possible? Why our friendly Howler Monkey Coaches, thats who. The only people who are going to have any sympathy to the coaches are the irrational fans and idiot sports reporters. If you are afraid of criticism from Howler Monkey Coaches, irrational fans, and/or idiot sports reporters, then my advice to you is to find another advocation because sports officiating is not for you. MTD, Sr. |
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I've read the OP several times and here is what I "get" or don't get. 1st T on bench-no dumping of coach-seatbelted. 2nd T on bench- 3rd T on bench-coach leaves now. So if I am reading this right it doesn't matter who got charged with the 1st T cause we now have 3 and the coach is done. If I'm wrong about this I am open to being educated. I don't think I'm going to spend alot of time going Columbo on who said what . |
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I realize the coaches' actions are what lead to your bringing up the forfeiture, but you are the one handing down the remedy and if it doesn't fit the crime, the focus CAN be put on you. All I'm saying is don't give them that chance. If you have minimal time left in any game and continuing play would not represent a security risk, then I'd be hard pressed to think of a situation where a forfeit is necessary. I'm sure there are things we can all come up with given time that would lead to one, but coaches cussing at refs doesn't come anywhere close. If you knew me for even 5 minutes, you would never have been able to type straight enough to get that last paragraph out. My wife and close friends would die laughing hearing that. |
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Texas: Your latest post leads me to believe that you are afraid of your assignor, your local association, and your state association. A head coach and his two of his three assistants, of a team who is winning by 20 points with just 8 secons left in the game, go absolutely wild. I didn't say that a forfeit was an absolute in this case. In 37 years of officiating I have been involved in two forfeits at the H.S. level (both JV games) and ended one VAR game with less than 10 seconds left in the game when fans spilled onto the court. I was the R in of the JV games and the U in the other JV and the VAR game. I am not advocating a blanket decision to forfeit the game. Each situation has its own dynamics. Did the AD or Pricipal of the team involved get to the bench area and take control of their coaches like they should have done, or did they take their coaches side and interfere with your game administration. Those are just a couple of things that an officiating crew would discuss before forfeiting a game. I think that you are making a mountain out of a mole hill about my comments concerning a possible forfeit. As I said in my first post, if the conditions warrant certain action and you do not take it because you are afraid of being criticized for taking that action by your superiors, then you have idiots for superiors, and you need to reevaluate your situation and if you are really cut out for this type of avocation. MTD, Sr. |
Other Possible Calls
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Also, is it possible to have two separate calls here, a common foul for the push, and a technical intentional foul for the jersey tug during the dead ball immediately after the first foul? We're not supposed to ignore intentional or flagrant fouls during dead ball periods. Again, I guess that you had to be there? |
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But yea, the whole problem had to suck. I hate when things go like that. I would handle it like this. Since we don't have a Bench T I would call an indirect T on the coach; next I would have both coaches report to the table and lay down the ground rules. I would say "Ok, I want this game under control. I don't want to hear another word out of anyones mouth. If you have a question, ask, but don't shout or course." After words, call a tight game. Calling a tight game early normally gets rid of all problems during the second half. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks |
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There's no need to get away from a coach that said that because he should have gotten tossed for a flagrant T. |
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